# Another Africa thread hijacked **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 1, 2011, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767 "2011-04-01T13:04:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2011, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/21 "2011-04-01T14:47:02Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > This messageboard is a haven for racists. We aren’t allowed to call them on it in GD except in the most mealymouthed ways, and we seem to pick up a new one every so often. It’s a disgrace. This is what you get when it’s even verboten to call a self-proclaimed racist a racist. Because God forbid we call someone who expresses racist views by the word that best describes them, instead of favoring nambypamby-assed euphemisms that do nothing except encourage people’s ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2011, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/22 "2011-04-01T14:51:34Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > It seems to me that it does have to do with the ongoing discussion. If, and I do say if, the race/IQ differences are valid, then they could explain a position that says “Africa would be pretty much the same without white imperialism”. > > I have started [a thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=602950) in ATMB to discuss, if anyone is interested. > > Regards, > Shodan I disagree. The focus of discussion is on what difference an event - imperialism - made on the trajectory of african history, not on the average intelligence of Africans. I suppose one could argue that the average intelligence of a group is the important determinant of every historical “what-if” scenario, but the absurdity of constantly harping on this must surely be evident. It reduces what is different about different questions on Africa to a boring sameness - simply put, _every_ discussion on African historical questions would reduce to the same-old, same-old wearisome discussion about the Bell Curve. Imagine if some group responded to every question like “What if Bismark’s unification of Germany had not happened?” or “what if the German generals had succeeded in assassinating Hitler?” with endless repetition of theories about the inherent intelligence of Germans. It would get annoying, fast. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2011, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/23 "2011-04-01T14:57:01Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > This is what you get when it’s even verboten to call a self-proclaimed racist a racist. Because God forbid we call someone who expresses racist views by the word that best describes them, instead of favoring nambypamby-assed euphemisms that do nothing except encourage people’s ignorance. Do you think the quality of the discussion would improve if we were allowed to call them racists? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2011, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/24 "2011-04-01T15:02:43Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The problem is that they return to the race/IQ question over and over again, even when it has very little or nothing to do with the ongoing discussion at hand. Even assuming they are simply very interested in the point and not at all motivated by racism, it’s obnoxious to continually hijack a discussion in that manner. It’s also obnoxious for orcenio et al to go all creationist when these studies come up. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2011, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/25 "2011-04-01T15:05:17Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > This is what you get when it’s even verboten to call a self-proclaimed racist a racist. Because God forbid we call someone who expresses racist views by the word that best describes them, instead of favoring nambypamby-assed euphemisms that do nothing except encourage people’s ignorance. Just what I’d expect a sjdjfkkkcbdist to say . . . ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2011, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/26 "2011-04-01T15:12:12Z")
It is regrettable. I know enough about precolonial Africa to know that I _don’t_ know as much as I’d like to about precolonial Africa–that there is much more worth learning. Good alternate-history speculation, of course, requires background in the circumstances which precede the “divergence.” Personally, I appreciated contributions in the thread from **even sven** as always on the African front, **Lemur866** , **Malthus** , **Mijin** , **MrDibble** , **orcenio** and **Ramira** –even when there was some disagreement within that set! Thank you. Your insights, perspectives or interesting links taught me things or made me reflect. Conversely, I’m wearied and mystified by the dedication of the anti-contributors, a smaller set than that just named. That their efforts should be capped off in this case with the remark, > [@Where would Africa be today if white imperialism had not happened?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-would-africa-be-today-if-white-imperialism-had-not-happened/576386/107): > > …I don’t see us having a frank discussion of race any time soon. makes me laugh/cry at the lack of shame or of self-awareness, depending on interpretation… if someone outside the usual suspects had said that particular line, I’d have thought it a clever (referencing [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=572378)) strike against them! Of course there have been several attempts to engage bell-curved race theories, to little evident effect. These people believe what they believe, I must suppose, for some reason of internal necessity. Science has nothing to do with it. What’s to be done? Shall ponies be banned for lack of tricks? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2011, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/27 "2011-04-01T15:17:27Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > These people believe what they believe, I must suppose, for some reason of internal necessity. Science has nothing to do with it. What’s your evidence for this proposition? ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2011, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/28 "2011-04-01T15:18:27Z")
I’m guessing that if he didn’t want to discuss race, then he probably wouldn’t have called the thread anything like “white imperialism.” ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2011, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/29 "2011-04-01T15:20:00Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > It is regrettable. I know enough about precolonial Africa to know that I _don’t_ know as much as I’d like to about precolonial Africa–that there is much more worth learning. Good alternate-history speculation, of course, requires background in the circumstances which precede the “divergence.” > > Personally, I appreciated contributions in the thread from **even sven** as always on the African front, **Lemur866** , **Malthus** , **Mijin** , **MrDibble** , **orcenio** and **Ramira** –even when there was some disagreement within that set! Thank you. Your insights, perspectives or interesting links taught me things or made me reflect. Thank you for that in return - though I’m far from an expert on matters African. The more I read about Africa, the more I realize that I don’t know very much about the civilizations of that continent. Just for an example - I always thought that the largest man-made artifact on earth was the Great Wall of China. Apparently, it is not - the largest is the Walls of Benin. Who knew? I’d never even heard of them. > **[Benin Moat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walls_of_Benin)** > > The Benin Moat (Edo: Iyanuwo), also known as the Benin Iya, or Walls of Benin, are a series of massive earthworks encircling Benin City in Nigeria's Edo State. These moats have deep historical roots, with evidence suggesting their existence before the establishment of the Oba monarchy. Construction began around 800 AD and continued until 1460 AD, involving large-scale manual labour and the repurposing of earth from the inner ditch to build the outer berm. Some traditional sources claim that t... ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2011, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/30 "2011-04-01T15:33:43Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I suppose one could argue that the average intelligence of a group is the important determinant of every historical “what-if” scenario, but the absurdity of constantly harping on this must surely be evident. “The” important determinant? Not necessarily. “An” important determinant? Perhaps, and therefore (IMO) something that should not be ruled out _ab initio_. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2011, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/31 "2011-04-01T15:37:49Z")
I haven’t checked that thread since it first appeared, but let me take a guess that someone also brought up _Guns, Germs and Steel_ as if it had been published in a peer reviewed scientific journal. I enjoyed that book, but I’m really get tired of that thing quoted around here like was some sort of gospel or something. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2011, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/32 "2011-04-01T15:51:53Z")
I just can’t understand how those posts are hijacks in the context of that thread. Stupid, yes, but on point. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2011, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/33 "2011-04-01T15:54:40Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Do you think the quality of the discussion would improve if we were allowed to call them racists? I find the quality of the discussion to be lessened when the word “racism” is deemed unsavory simply because it upsets people to be called racist when they are saying racists things. So yeah, I do think discussions would be improved if we didn’t have to walk on eggshells for these people. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2011, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/34 "2011-04-01T15:55:17Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > “The” important determinant? Not necessarily. “An” important determinant? Perhaps, and therefore (IMO) something that should not be ruled out _ab initio_. > > Regards, > Shodan Racist. (No, really, some people think that that position alone is racist.) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2011, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/35 "2011-04-01T16:02:57Z")
Guns, Germs and Steel doesn’t claim to be anything other than what it is. It may not be peer reviewed itself, but Diamond certainly has put his theories into journals too. And coming back with the 10000 year explosion, as the racists do, certainly isn’t any better. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2011, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/36 "2011-04-01T16:08:24Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > I haven’t read the other thread, but I would bet my left nut that what they are saying isn’t racist in the least. They are probably just discussing the research that shows how IQ tends to vary across racial groups. There is no such research. There is also no such thing (biologically) as a “racial group.” ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2011, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/37 "2011-04-01T16:09:43Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > What’s your evidence for this proposition? The complete lack of scientific support for their magical beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2011, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/38 "2011-04-01T16:21:45Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I find the quality of the discussion to be lessened when the word “racism” is deemed unsavory simply because it upsets people to be called racist when they are saying racists things. > > So yeah, I do think discussions would be improved if we didn’t have to walk on eggshells for these people. I disagree: the discussion should be about the ideas, not the moral qualities of those proposing the ideas. Creating an ad-hom flame-fest rarely if ever improves a debate. In this case, the particular ideas under discussion were tangental to the main discussion - that is, a hijack. This would be true even if those ideas were not racist in the slightest. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2011, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/39 "2011-04-01T16:23:32Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > There is no such research. There is also no such thing (biologically) as a “racial group.” I’ve rubbed your nose in this bit of your ignorance before, but looks like you need another lesson. It is correct that there’s no objective definition of “race”–you can’t rub a person with a piece of paper and blue mans “white” or red means “black.”. However, one could use subjective criteria to group people into different categories and could call those categories a “race.” There’s nothing unscientific or inherently wrong about that. And that’s all the race/IQ studies do–they do not purport to objectively identify people as one race or another. One thing you’ve never responded to when we’ve discussed this before is that there is also no objective way to determine a person’s gender. Rather, there are various ways to define “male” and “female,” and a given person could me male under one definition and female under another. Maleness or femaleness is subjective and not binary (just like race). Does that mean that it’s meaningless to talk amout a person as “male” or “female”? Of course not. In the same way, it’s not meaningless to talk about a person as “asian” or “white.” ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2011, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/40 "2011-04-01T16:28:37Z")
Except that for 99.9% of the population, gender _is_ binary. Try again. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767.md?page=3)