# Another Africa thread hijacked **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 1, 2011, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767 "2011-04-01T13:04:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2011, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/441 "2011-04-08T22:40:40Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > So I was coming in here to see if you were still racist. Thanks for clearing that up. A watched racist has boils. Or something like that. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2011, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/442 "2011-04-08T23:23:32Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > So I was coming in here to see if you were still racist. Thanks for clearing that up. The truth is racist. You can shout “Racist!” just as loud as you want. The truth remains. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2011, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/443 "2011-04-09T00:02:00Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > The truth is racist. You can shout “Racist!” just as loud as you want. The truth remains. And that folks shows what wolf NDD is feeding. I prefer to see how we can find ways to elevate people regardless of the color of their skin. [http://www.ted.com/talks/patricia\_ryan\_ideas\_in\_all\_languages\_not\_just\_english.html?c=216042#](http://www.ted.com/talks/patricia_ryan_ideas_in_all_languages_not_just_english.html?c=216042#) > [@](#): > > I don’t know if you saw it on CNN recently – they gave the Heroes Award to a young Kenyan shepherd boy who couldn’t study at night in his village like all the village children, because the kerosene lamp, it had smoke and it damaged his eyes. And anyway, there was never enough kerosene, because what does a dollar a day buy for you? So he invented a cost-free solar lamp. And now the children in his village get the same grades at school as the children who have electricity at home. (Applause) When he received his award, he said these lovely words: > > “The children can lead Africa from what it is today, a dark continent, to a light continent.” > > A simple idea, but it could have such far-reaching consequences. > > People who have no light, whether it’s physical or metaphorical, cannot pass our exams, and we can never know what they know. Let us not keep them and ourselves in the dark. Let us celebrate diversity. Besides finding better reasons for the differences in testing, better solutions to problems like underdevelopment do not need to depend on genes. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2011, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/444 "2011-04-09T00:57:55Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > The truth is racist. You can shout “Racist!” just as loud as you want. The truth remains. I’m not shouting. You are using bad science to back up an archaic belief system. You have been asked to explain the serious flaws in methodology of these studies but you have not done so. You have not done so because you clearly don’t understand what makes good science. Your refusal to address this rationally does not reflect well on your position. But it makes sense, because racism isn’t rational. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2011, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/445 "2011-04-09T16:20:29Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > I’m not shouting. You are using bad science to back up an archaic belief system. You have been asked to explain the serious flaws in methodology of these studies but you have not done so. You have not done so because you clearly don’t understand what makes good science. Your refusal to address this rationally does not reflect well on your position. But it makes sense, because racism isn’t rational. Charles Murray only documents what nearly everyone knows to be true. Everywhere in the world blacks have lower average intelligence than whites. They also have much higher crime rates than whites. The burden of proof is on those who maintain that these qualities are not innate. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2011, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/446 "2011-04-09T17:48:47Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > The burden of proof is on those who maintain that these qualities are not innate. Can you prove that it _ **didn’t** _ happen? –Criswell Bad ideas. Bad logic. Bad disguise. New Deal “Democrat”, wrong for America! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2011, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/447 "2011-04-09T18:21:20Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Charles Murray only documents what nearly everyone knows to be true. Everywhere in the world blacks have lower average intelligence than whites. They also have much higher crime rates than whites. The burden of proof is on those who maintain that these qualities are not innate. Um, no, the burden of proof is on radicals who believe it _is_ innate despite all of the evidence we have to the contrary. As we have discussed, Charles Murray wasn’t documenting shit - he was pulling stuff out of his ass and hoping it would stick. Your insistence that his bad science somehow still has validity because ‘‘everyone knows it to be true’’ is nonsense. Quit pretending that your claims have any objective validity, because they don’t. Now we have actual real scientists, on the other hand, who have carefully and systematically documented the effects of poverty on human development. We know that poor nutrition during the prenatal period and up to three years of age has a substantial influence on someone’s IQ. We know that IQ tests are culturally biased and therefore pretty useless for most other cultures (Since you love anecdotal evidence, I’m a white girl from rural Michigan and when I took one myself, the bias toward Western/European culture was painfully obvious.) We know that merely asking someone to report his or her race prior to taking a test decreases performance on that test, suggesting that messages of inferiority perpetrated by the likes of you contribute to African Americans’ performance. We know that blacks have, as a people, been historically subjugated and oppressed throughout the entire world. We know that blacks are much more likely to be incarcerated for the same crimes than whites, less likely to be hired after a prison sentence than white convicts, and just as likely to be victims of crimes as they are to be perpetrators. Speaking of crimes, you know what’s correlated with criminal behavior, regardless of race? Poverty! Yes, that’s right, there is really no meaningful difference between the crime rates of whites and blacks when you take into account socioeconomic status. As many in the United States will soon learn as a result of our backward social policies, poverty is the great equalizer. So what I don’t understand is why you keep pretending all of that research doesn’t exist and keep clinging to all of your perverted ‘‘facts’’ like they actually mean anything in any objective sense. The only possible explanation is racism. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2011, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/448 "2011-04-09T19:48:11Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > Um, no, the burden of proof is on radicals who believe it _is_ innate despite all of the evidence we have to the contrary. As we have discussed, Charles Murray wasn’t documenting shit - he was pulling stuff out of his ass and hoping it would stick. Your insistence that his bad science somehow still has validity because ‘‘everyone knows it to be true’’ is nonsense. Quit pretending that your claims have any objective validity, because they don’t. > > Now we have actual real scientists, on the other hand, who have carefully and systematically documented the effects of poverty on human development. We know that poor nutrition during the prenatal period and up to three years of age has a substantial influence on someone’s IQ. We know that IQ tests are culturally biased and therefore pretty useless for most other cultures (Since you love anecdotal evidence, I’m a white girl from rural Michigan and when I took one myself, the bias toward Western/European culture was painfully obvious.) We know that merely asking someone to report his or her race prior to taking a test decreases performance on that test, suggesting that messages of inferiority perpetrated by the likes of you contribute to African Americans’ performance. We know that blacks have, as a people, been historically subjugated and oppressed throughout the entire world. We know that blacks are much more likely to be incarcerated for the same crimes than whites, less likely to be hired after a prison sentence than white convicts, and just as likely to be victims of crimes as they are to be perpetrators. Speaking of crimes, you know what’s correlated with criminal behavior, regardless of race? Poverty! Yes, that’s right, there is really no meaningful difference between the crime rates of whites and blacks when you take into account socioeconomic status. As many in the United States will soon learn as a result of our backward social policies, poverty is the great equalizer. > > So what I don’t understand is why you keep pretending all of that research doesn’t exist and keep clinging to all of your perverted ‘‘facts’’ like they actually mean anything in any objective sense. The only possible explanation is racism. That “research” will remain unimpressive until blacks behave and perform as well as whites. It has been over forty years since the civil rights legislation was signed. How much longer will we have to wait? Another hundred years? Another thousand years? Haiti has been a black majority country for over two centuries. It is a basket case, even by the standards of Latin America. If IQ tests are culturally biased, why do Orientals generally do better than whites? Why do Hispanics, many of whom speak English as a second language, generally do better than blacks? If the income of the parents matters so much, why have poor Oriental and Jewish immigrants to the United States frequently done so well in school? I have read that even when income is held constant blacks still have a crime rate that is two and a half higher than the white rate. I know that poor Orientals have a low crime rate, both because I have lived with them, and from reading. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2011, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/449 "2011-04-09T20:22:42Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > That “research” will remain unimpressive until blacks behave and perform as well as whites. It has been over forty years since the civil rights legislation was signed. How much longer will we have to wait? Another hundred years? Another thousand years? Haiti has been a black majority country for over two centuries. It is a basket case, even by the standards of Latin America. As even the Hoover Institute, that is a conservative think thank, does not see it that way, you will have to do better if you even want to convince us that your solutions have any support that counts whatsoever. > [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > If IQ tests are culturally biased, why do Orientals generally do better than whites? Why do Hispanics, many of whom speak English as a second language, generally do better than blacks? Funny, that is not what we see on the ones that make an effort to study both languages properly. [http://www.npr.org/2011/04/04/135043787/being-bilingual-may-boost-your-brain-power](http://www.npr.org/2011/04/04/135043787/being-bilingual-may-boost-your-brain-power) > [@](#): > > Remodeling The Brain? > > Constantly engaging this executive control function is a form of mental exercise, explains Bialystok, and some researchers, including herself, believe that this can be beneficial for the brain. Bilingual speakers have been shown to perform better on a variety of cognitive tasks, and one study Bialistok did found that dementia set in four to five years later in people who spent their lives speaking two languages instead of one. > > “They can get a little extra mileage from these cognitive networks because they have been enhanced throughout life,” said Bialystok. > > And the advantages of bilingualism may be due to more than just “mental fitness.” Bialystok says there’s some preliminary evidence that being bilingual may physically remodel parts of the brain. It’s something researchers are only beginning to look into, but she says there is reason to believe that speaking a second language may lead to important changes in brain structure as well. > [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > If the income of the parents matters so much, why have poor Oriental and Jewish immigrants to the United States frequently done so well in school? That is more a result of the culture than genetics. > [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > I have read that even when income is held constant blacks still have a crime rate that is two and a half higher than the white rate. I know that poor Orientals have a low crime rate, both because I have lived with them, and from reading. There are more theories than just your favorite, and yes, lets see your cites because so far we have found that they do not usually support your positions, and even less, your solutions. > **[Race and crime in the United States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States)** > > In the United States, the relationship between race and crime has been a topic of public controversy and scholarly debate for more than a century. Crime rates vary significantly between racial groups; however, academic research indicates that the over-representation of some racial minorities in the criminal justice system can in part be explained by socioeconomic factors, such as poverty, exposure to poor neighborhoods, poor access to public and early education, and exposure Research also ind... ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2011, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/450 "2011-04-09T22:16:02Z")
All right, I think I learned a valuable lesson there. Let the mocking commence. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2011, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/451 "2011-04-09T22:36:52Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Funny, that is not what we see on the ones that make an effort to study both languages properly. > > [Being Bilingual May Boost Your Brain Power : NPR](http://www.npr.org/2011/04/04/135043787/being-bilingual-may-boost-your-brain-power) > [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > All right, I think I learned a valuable lesson there. Let the mocking commence. :smack: Oh, well, I really was confused thinking that there was a “don’t” there, but the important thing to get is this: We are more than our genes. How we learn stuff is very important and just concentrating on “English only” is not a solution, and learning 2 languages can explain the difference. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2011, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/452 "2011-04-09T23:01:51Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > :smack: > > Oh, well, I really was confused thinking that there was a “don’t” there, but the important thing to get is this: We are more than our genes. How we learn stuff is very important and just concentrating on “English only” is not a solution, and learning 2 languages can explain the difference. No, that wasn’t meant for you - bless you, you are doing most of my work for me by posting all these lovely cites. I meant let’s commence mocking the racist. The lesson I learned is that you can’t reason a man out of a position he hasn’t reasoned himself into. I don’t really know how to fix racism, but apparently ‘‘careful and systematic refutation of claims’’ isn’t very effective. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/453 "2011-04-10T11:22:55Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > No, that wasn’t meant for you - bless you, you are doing most of my work for me by posting all these lovely cites. I meant let’s commence mocking the racist. The lesson I learned is that you can’t reason a man out of a position he hasn’t reasoned himself into. I don’t really know how to fix racism, but apparently ‘‘careful and systematic refutation of claims’’ isn’t very effective. Racism will be fixed when blacks behave and perform as well as whites. As long as blacks reinforce racism with their high rates of crime and illegitimacy, and their inferior intellectual performance, racism will persist, although it may be possible to suppress the expression of racist sentiments. Racism can be mocked. It cannot be refuted. The facts speak loudly, even when voices are silenced. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/454 "2011-04-10T11:47:53Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Racism will be fixed when blacks behave and perform as well as whites. As long as blacks reinforce racism with their high rates of crime and illegitimacy, and their inferior intellectual performance, racism will persist, although it may be possible to suppress the expression of racist sentiments. > > Racism can be mocked. It cannot be refuted. The facts speak loudly, even when voices are silenced. Yeah, riiiiiiiight. Where are your cites showing the scientists you linked supporting your solutions or verdicts? Where are the organizations like the Hoover Institute supporting your solutions based on your ideas? Your voices are silent, and not only because of the facts, but because you clearly are so pathetic that you are not even capable of noticing how unlikely is that the people in power would give you even the time of the day. Time is not on your side. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/455 "2011-04-10T12:24:53Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Racism will be fixed when blacks behave and perform as well as whites. As long as blacks reinforce racism with their high rates of crime and illegitimacy, and their inferior intellectual performance, racism will persist, although it may be possible to suppress the expression of racist sentiments. > > Racism can be mocked. It cannot be refuted. The facts speak loudly, even when voices are silenced. You couldn’t have picked a better username. Straight out of the 1930s you are. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/456 "2011-04-10T15:57:37Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > You couldn’t have picked a better username. Well, except all those times when the mask slips with a GOPese reference to “the Democrat Party” and the like. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/457 "2011-04-10T20:48:48Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > You couldn’t have picked a better username. Straight out of the 1930s you are. From 1932 to 1968 the Democrats dominated the country. Then they went out on a limb to help the blacks. Blacks cut off the limb. The civil rights legislation and the war on poverty were followed by five years of black ghetto rioting, more enduring increases in black crime and illegitimacy, and the Republican domination of the country. Most white blue collar workers vote Republican even though they have not benefited from Republican economic policies. This is because they do not trust the Democrats on racial policy. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/458 "2011-04-10T20:51:08Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > From 1932 to 1968 the Democrats dominated the country. Then they went out on a limb to help the blacks. Blacks cut off the limb. The civil rights legislation and the war on poverty were followed by five years of black ghetto rioting, more enduring increases in black crime and illegitimacy, and the Republican domination of the country. > > Most white blue collar workers vote Republican even though they have not benefited from Republican economic policies. This is because they do not trust the Democrats on racial policy. And what Republicans are suggesting that we follow your solutions to the problems based on your ideas? Pathetic. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/459 "2011-04-10T20:51:44Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > Um, no, the burden of proof is on radicals who believe it _is_ innate despite all of the evidence we have to the contrary. As we have discussed, Charles Murray wasn’t documenting shit - he was pulling stuff out of his ass and hoping it would stick. Your insistence that his bad science somehow still has validity because ‘‘everyone knows it to be true’’ is nonsense. Quit pretending that your claims have any objective validity, because they don’t. > > Now we have actual real scientists, on the other hand, who have carefully and systematically documented the effects of poverty on human development. We know that poor nutrition during the prenatal period and up to three years of age has a substantial influence on someone’s IQ. We know that IQ tests are culturally biased and therefore pretty useless for most other cultures (Since you love anecdotal evidence, I’m a white girl from rural Michigan and when I took one myself, the bias toward Western/European culture was painfully obvious.) We know that merely asking someone to report his or her race prior to taking a test decreases performance on that test, suggesting that messages of inferiority perpetrated by the likes of you contribute to African Americans’ performance. We know that blacks have, as a people, been historically subjugated and oppressed throughout the entire world. We know that blacks are much more likely to be incarcerated for the same crimes than whites, less likely to be hired after a prison sentence than white convicts, and just as likely to be victims of crimes as they are to be perpetrators. Speaking of crimes, you know what’s correlated with criminal behavior, regardless of race? Poverty! Yes, that’s right, there is really no meaningful difference between the crime rates of whites and blacks when you take into account socioeconomic status. As many in the United States will soon learn as a result of our backward social policies, poverty is the great equalizer. > > So what I don’t understand is why you keep pretending all of that research doesn’t exist and keep clinging to all of your perverted ‘‘facts’’ like they actually mean anything in any objective sense. The only possible explanation is racism. 1. Can you point to Murray, Arthur Jensen, Linda Gottfredson or anyone else ignoring the impact of poor nutrition, environmental toxins or poverty? I suspect you’ve never read any of their published papers. 2. Would you describe Steven Pinker as a real scientist? > [@](#): > > To study something scientifically, you first have to measure it, and psychologists have developed tests for many mental traits. And contrary to popular opinion, the tests work pretty well: they give a similar measurement of a person every time they are administered, and they statistically predict life outcomes like school and job performance, psychiatric diagnoses and marital stability. Tests for intelligence might ask people to recite a string of digits backward, define a word like “predicament,” identify what an egg and a seed have in common or assemble four triangles into a square. Personality tests ask people to agree or disagree with statements like “Often I cross the street in order not to meet someone I know,” “I often was in trouble in school,” “Before I do something I try to consider how my friends will react to it” and “People say insulting and vulgar things about me.” People’s answers to a large set of these questions tend to vary in five major ways: openness to experience, conscientiousness, extraversion, agreeableness (as opposed to antagonism) and neuroticism. The scores can then be compared with those of relatives who vary in relatedness and family backgrounds. > > The most prominent finding of behavioral genetics has been summarized by the psychologist Eric Turkheimer: “The nature-nurture debate is over. . . . All human behavioral traits are heritable.” By this he meant that a substantial fraction of the variation among individuals within a culture can be linked to variation in their genes. Whether you measure intelligence or personality, religiosity or political orientation, television watching or cigarette smoking, the outcome is the same. Identical twins (who share all their genes) are more similar than fraternal twins (who share half their genes that vary among people). Biological siblings (who share half those genes too) are more similar than adopted siblings (who share no more genes than do strangers). And identical twins separated at birth and raised in different adoptive homes (who share their genes but not their environments) are uncannily similar. [http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/11/magazine/11Genome-t.html?\_r=1&pagewanted=2](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/11/magazine/11Genome-t.html?_r=1&pagewanted=2) 1. Your comment about disparities being explained by poverty is incorrect. Look at the data on [Jewish & Asian crime](http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=vgHgNsmZ3vsC&printsec=frontcover&dq=walsh+race+%26+crime&source=bl&ots=PCUW7Y0Mp7&sig=zWsQK2WTJSSQAX277M49uuU_Wak&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false) (see p 32,33 & 63). 2. Adjusting for [family income](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:1995-SAT-Income.png) and [education](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:1995-SAT-vs-Income-Education.png) doesn’t remove group differences. 3. I suppose you think it must be racism that explains the common trend for some groups to be overrepresented in academic achievement around the world? The east asians, in Brazil (Japanese were brought out as indentured labour), Canada, US, Australia, NZ, UK, wherever, seem to be overrepresented. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/460 "2011-04-10T20:55:22Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > 1. Would you describe Steven Pinker as a real scientist? Pinker’s academic specializations are visual cognition and psycholinguistics. So no, not an expert in African affairs. Or have you forgotten what this thread was supposed to be about? Must be the genes… 🙂 In any case, not much of a force in anthropology, biology or genetics. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767.md?page=24)