# Another Africa thread hijacked **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 1, 2011, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767 "2011-04-01T13:04:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/161 "2011-04-02T04:03:48Z")
> [@Rotlla](#): > > If only I was a few points smarter, maybe I would be able to understand why black people are inherently inferior to me! Don’t be so hard on yourself. Unless you’re Jewish or Asian, and then WTF we expected better of you! ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/162 "2011-04-02T04:23:44Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > I haven’t read the other thread, but I would bet my left nut that what they are saying isn’t racist in the least. They are probably just discussing the research that shows how IQ tends to vary across racial groups. If anything, it’s a matter of language, not genetics…which IMHO would have had at least some scientific ground and contributed to the conversation. Hi, I’m JoyAnn. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/163 "2011-04-02T04:31:34Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > I haven’t read the other thread, but I would bet my left nut that what they are saying isn’t racist in the least. They are probably just discussing the research that shows how IQ tends to vary across racial groups. Their racism is in their baseless theory for why the observation can be made and for their excellent ability to avoid entertaining any other conclusion. I think you probably already knew that though, you silly little turd. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/164 "2011-04-02T04:36:52Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > That’s not a very convincing argument as to why the quality of debate would be improved. My guess is that it would make you feel better to be able to call people out. But that’s not the same thing as improving the quality of debate. > > We don’t allow personal insults in GD. If you can’t make a case against someone without calling them a racist, then you’re not a very good debater. They are scientific racists and they should be called scientific racists because they follow the exact same pattern of behavior ascribed to those who are historically labeled scientific racists. The only difference is that neither of the Ch-douches actually practices any form of science. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/165 "2011-04-02T04:48:58Z")
Do I need to go back and re-read that thread? I saw some silly ignorance and poor understanding of science (and history) but it’s incredibly easy to be racist. Man appears to be ethnocentric by nature. ---
**Author:** ![random6x7](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8baadc/32.png) [@random6x7](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/random6x7)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/166 "2011-04-02T05:09:49Z")
Also, if I ever get around to taking over the planet (muahahahah), I’m going to institute mandatory anthropology classes. Seriously, how can you have a discussion about people and their innate qualities without discussing culture? Surely I am not the only one who sees where there may be ever so slight cultural reasons why a kid in a country where it’s hard to get a decent education might score lower than a kid who grows up somewhere there’s near-universal education and access to books and computers (until library funding gets cut again, of course). Or why kids in two different income brackets might have different learning outcomes. Sorry, lurk-y anthropology major here. This whole discussion is one of my big, huge pet-peeves. Sad part? My biological anthropology professor felt the need to spend a large chunk of our course going over this racial shit because enough people still think it’s important on a biological level. I’m in a master’s program! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/167 "2011-04-02T05:19:47Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > That’s not a very convincing argument as to why the quality of debate would be improved. My guess is that it would make you feel better to be able to call people out. But that’s not the same thing as improving the quality of debate. > > We don’t allow personal insults in GD. If you can’t make a case against someone without calling them a racist, then you’re not a very good debater. So instead you prefer every GD thread about Africa get hijacked bigoted trash? That’s a good debate system to you? Face it being able to call the bigots out would help end those hijacks. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/168 "2011-04-02T05:24:48Z")
> [@random6x7](#): > > Also, if I ever get around to taking over the planet (muahahahah), I’m going to institute mandatory anthropology classes. Seriously, how can you have a discussion about people and their innate qualities without discussing culture? Surely I am not the only one who sees where there may be ever so slight cultural reasons why a kid in a country where it’s hard to get a decent education might score lower than a kid who grows up somewhere there’s near-universal education and access to books and computers (until library funding gets cut again, of course). Or why kids in two different income brackets might have different learning outcomes. > > Sorry, lurk-y anthropology major here. This whole discussion is one of my big, huge pet-peeves. Sad part? My biological anthropology professor felt the need to spend a large chunk of our course going over this racial shit because enough people still think it’s important on a biological level. I’m in a master’s program! Good to see you here **random6x7** , can you tell us if my impression is correct and the consensus among serious researchers is that most if not all of this “scientific” racial stuff is crap? ---
**Author:** ![random6x7](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8baadc/32.png) [@random6x7](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/random6x7)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/169 "2011-04-02T06:06:55Z")
Thanks, GIGObuster! My subfield’s archaeology, so I could be off, but the impression that I got from my professor and my friends in biological anthropology, as well as from our readings, is that, yeah, it’s bunk. There are a lot of reasons that race is not an adequate description of human variation, and none of them rely on white guilt. The problem is that biological anthropology in the US was built on racial theory, and it’s like a freakin’ zombie. Damn theory won’t stay dead, even though we’ve been moving away from this since around the 1940’s or ‘50’s. There are still a few biological anthropologists who accept race theory, but they are not common. In fact, I think the reason we spent so much time on this in our class was because the professor emeritus for bio anth is one of the pro-race dudes, but even he isn’t all Bell Curve-lovin’. We read parts of Brace’s “Race” Is a Four-Letter Word for class. It’s pretty good. He’s awfully gossipy, so it’s a more fun read, and it gives a nice history of racial theory. I recommend it if anyone’s interested in why we’re still talking about this. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/170 "2011-04-02T07:02:06Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > … [http://the10000yearexplosion.com/](http://the10000yearexplosion.com/) … Do you get paid every time you post this link/mention this book or something? CMC fnord! I urge everyone to take a look at that site, the embedded links will open your eyes to the serious scholarship contained in the book! :dubious: (The link on [this](http://the10000yearexplosion.com/expansion/) page certainly changed my mind, “There can be only one!”) ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/171 "2011-04-02T08:02:40Z")
> [@random6x7](#): > > Thanks, GIGObuster! My subfield’s archaeology, so I could be off, but the impression that I got from my professor and my friends in biological anthropology, as well as from our readings, is that, yeah, it’s bunk. There are a lot of reasons that race is not an adequate description of human variation, and none of them rely on white guilt. The problem is that biological anthropology in the US was built on racial theory, and it’s like a freakin’ zombie. Damn theory won’t stay dead, even though we’ve been moving away from this since around the 1940’s or ‘50’s. There are still a few biological anthropologists who accept race theory, but they are not common. In fact, I think the reason we spent so much time on this in our class was because the professor emeritus for bio anth is one of the pro-race dudes, but even he isn’t all Bell Curve-lovin’. > > We read parts of Brace’s “Race” Is a Four-Letter Word for class. It’s pretty good. He’s awfully gossipy, so it’s a more fun read, and it gives a nice history of racial theory. I recommend it if anyone’s interested in why we’re still talking about this. During the Civil Rights movement people started to lie about racial differences. Those differences persist, however. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/172 "2011-04-02T08:04:54Z")
> [@Rotlla](#): > > Well, since the Flynn Effect has been brought up, who would like to join me in discussing how it makes discussion of IQ scores of people in other countries totally irrelevant? When IQ testing began there was a fifteen point gap between average white and black scores. There still is a fifteen point gap. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/173 "2011-04-02T08:12:24Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > During the Civil Rights movement people started to lie about racial differences. Those differences persist, however. As \*\*tomndebb \*\*and \*\*random6x7 \*\*reported, it is clear who has been lying. Your points are not only controversial, but based on lies and losing ground in academia. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/174 "2011-04-02T09:24:26Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Good to see you here **random6x7** , can you tell us if my impression is correct and the consensus among serious researchers is that most if not all of this “scientific” racial stuff is crap? In the popular media maybe, but not amongst researchers if you ask them privately. Mark Snyderman & Stanley Rothman surveyed 661 members from the Behavior Genetics Association, American Educational Research Association, National Council on Measurement in Education, American Psychological Association, American Sociological Association & Cognitive Science Society. Only 15% considered group or population differences in intelligence to be attributable solely to environmental factors, while 45% considered it was a “product of genetic and environmental variation”. In other words, 3 times as many researchers held the view of Jensen compared to the Leon Kamin view. > **[The IQ Controversy, the Media and Public Policy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_IQ_Controversy,_the_Media_and_Public_Policy_%28book%29)** > > The IQ Controversy, the Media and Public Policy is a book published by Smith College professor emeritus Stanley Rothman and Harvard researcher Mark Snyderman in 1988. Claiming to document liberal bias in media coverage of scientific findings regarding intelligence quotient (IQ), the book builds on a survey of the opinions of hundreds of North American psychologists, sociologists and educationalists conducted by the authors in 1984. The book also includes an analysis of the reporting on intelligen... > [@](#): > > There are a lot of reasons that race is not an adequate description of human variation Obviously you could say that anything above the individual level is not an adequate description. However, races or continental populations obviously exist, from a forensic anthropology perspective, medical or a population genetics perspective: > [@](#): > > Numerous recent studies using a variety of genetic markers have shown that, for example, individuals sampled worldwide fall into clusters that roughly correspond to continental lines, as well as to the commonly used self-identifying racial groups: Africans, European/West Asians, East Asians, Pacific Islanders, and Native Americans (Bowcock et al. 1994; Calafell et al. 1998; Rosenberg et al. 2002). > > Subjects identified themselves as belonging to one of four major racial/ethnic groups (white, African American, East Asian, and Hispanic) and were recruited from 15 different geographic locales within the United States and Taiwan. Genetic cluster analysis of the microsatellite markers produced four major clusters, which showed near-perfect correspondence with the four self-reported race/ethnicity categories. [http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1196372/](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1196372/) > [@](#): > > There exists adequate evidence of racial disparities to warrant stratification for genomic studies of many complex diseases. There are numerous examples of such racial disparities in disease (e.g. prostate cancer,11 glaucoma,12 chronic kidney disease,13 and diabetes-related lower extremity amputation)14 and response to therapy (e.g. high-dose interferon treatment for chronic hepatitis C)15 that persist after accounting for a wide range of potential confounders (e.g. access to care, socioeconomic status, health behaviours). Such residual race effects should at the very least raise some suspicion regarding the distribution and effect size of susceptibility alleles associated with these and other complex disorders. [http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/content/32/1/26.full](http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/content/32/1/26.full) ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/175 "2011-04-02T09:42:55Z")
Both these people participate in the Pit. All you’d have to do is link a post in the thread: “I’m ignoring your arguments. See this Pit thread for why.” And then actually do it. Or you can just say that all of their post are racist, without condemning them as an individual. We all know that NDD has admitted to trolling. There’s nothing to refute–he’s just trying to get us riled up. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/176 "2011-04-02T10:44:33Z")
It’s interesting to note that any consideration of genetically-based differences among human populations becomes an inflammatory “hijack” in the minds of folks taught the they must maintain a core belief that Mother Nature has designed a system where there is no gene prevalence difference among these human populations. People believe this egalitarianism despite the fact that it is fundamentally a Creationist position, consistent only with a recent descent over a limited number of generations from a single tiny group. They believe it despite the fact that every other animal group shows remarkable variation with species sub-populations. They believe it despite multiple studies showing prevalence differences for any number of genes which vary among SIRE groups. They believe it despite reasonably well-worked out science showing dispersal of the human populations out of our African ancestry. They believe it despite a complete inability on the part of any group anywhere to eliminate differences by accounting for nurturing variables. They believe it despite quanitative testing which produces consistent results. Their approach here is to attack any quantitative test, be it formal IQ testing or standardized academic testing, repeating a completely unsupported mantra that such tests are somehow biased. It makes no difference that it would be impossible to create bias on an Medical School entrance test for quantitative sciences. It’s an article of faith that if a differential outcome is consistently observed among test takers with the same opportunity but from different groups, that alone is sufficient to prove the test must be flawed. They believe it despite the evidence in the world around them. If standardized testing ranks one group differently from another, and it has real-life correlation, we would expect to see evidence of that in the everyday world. If Asians outscore blacks in STEM testing, we’d expect to look at Asian countries and find some evidence of that. Consider the example of the Koreas. Here are two countries with reasonably similar populations living under two diametrically opposed economic systems, one of which has rendered its population wretchedly destitute and yet the raw intellect of North Korea has enabled them to develop modern rocketry and nuclear science. On the other hand, when we look at sub-saharan African countries (beyond imported expertise) we find no pockets of intellectual achievement in the STEM fields. Neither do we find individuals from those groups achieving STEM success elsewhere equivalent to emigrants from Asian countries. The strawmen arguments set up against the idea of “racism” comfort egalitarians. If, instead of simply attacking “racists” they actually had evidence, that’s what they should present. Instead of attacking IQ and SAT tests as biased, show the results of tests corrected for bias. Unfortunately, as the Ricci case (and more recently, the case of Dayton police exams) shows, the differential results by SIRE groups is universal and so far immutable. That we wish it were different does not change reality. It’s a fuzzy warm feeling that the Mbuit are going to have their place in the NBA some day, and that Hitler’s Aryans will return to sprinting glory, but it won’t happen. We can have the straight dope or we can have the spun dope. There may be good reason to argue that only the spun dope should be allowed to see the light of day here because we do not want the truth or because it is too uncomfortable for society to talk about it. If so, the next debate should be around a name change for the SDMB. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/177 "2011-04-02T12:29:10Z")
I’m betting the “Blacks are sooo stupid” crowd. would totally get pwned by black Dopers on this board at any and everything. Anyone who believes that **The Bell Curve** even merits a glance at the dust jacket already has questionable intelligence. If anyone is interested, yesterday I watched “Wonders of the African World” by Henry Louis Gates on youtube yesterday. Not only does he do a good job of dispelling the “They are so dumb” myth, but the show is just entertaining to watch and you get to see what a goofy nerd the guy is. I doubt the racists, self-described or not, will actually follow my advice, especially since I’m an inferior negro. But I just thought I’d throw it out there for those who might be interested. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/178 "2011-04-02T13:13:38Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I haven’t checked that thread since it first appeared, but let me take a guess that someone also brought up _Guns, Germs and Steel_ as if it had been published in a peer reviewed scientific journal. I enjoyed that book, but I’m really get tired of that thing quoted around here like was some sort of gospel or something. Agriculture began 10,000 years ago in the Near East. Civilization began there 5,000 years ago. Guns, Germs, and Steel explains why this happened. There just happened to be edible plants and animals there that were easy to domesticate. Wild wheat, barley, chick peas, figs, dates, olives, and grapes grew there and probably still do. Wild sheep, goats, donkeys, and cattle lived there and probably still do. Horses were not domesticated until later, but they could be domesticated. In the New World American Indians hunted horses to extinction, so they were not available for domestication. In Africa zebras cannot be domesticated. Civilization requires agriculture. Because agriculture began in the Near East, civilization began there 5,000 years later. Indeed, the Egyptian and Sumerian civilizations began in order to make better agricultural use of the Nile River, and the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. What the author of Guns, Germs, and Steel overlooks, or refuses to acknowledge is that once agriculture and civilization begin, they have different population pressures than a hunter gatherer existence. Farmers need to be able to plan ahead. They need to be able to be able to defer gratification. They need to be able to endure long periods of monotony. They need to be able to get along with people they do not like. Most of these skills require greater intelligence. Civilization places even more population pressure on superior intelligence. Men with the intelligence to become successful merchants, government officials, artists, artisans, and so on live better lives than manual laborers, and have more children who survive and reproduce. In a civilized nation those with criminal tendencies are gradually removed from the breeding population by the criminal justice system. In the Far East agriculture began independently one or two thousands of years later than in the Near East. The earliest Chinese civilization began about four thousand years ago. For about two thousand years, ending only in the late nineteenth century, the Imperial Exam system placed a higher premium on superior intelligence in China than anywhere else in the world. Boys who could pass the exams entered the scholar gentry. They were given high incomes, and expected to have several wives and many children. Although boys born into the scholar gentry had an advantage in preparing for the exams, many sons of peasants won the highest honors. Agriculture did not begin in the New World until five thousand years ago. The earliest civilizations began about three thousand years ago. Agriculture did not reach what is now the northern part of the United States until one thousand years ago. Agriculture may have begun in sub Saharan Africa five thousand years ago. It did not begin to spread until two and a half thousand years ago. Large numbers of blacks did not begin to live in cities until the the twentieth century. Urban areas dominated by blacks are not known for civilized behavior. The longer a population group has practiced agriculture and urban living, the lower its crime rate is likely to be, and the higher its average intelligence. One can see this by looking at the following charts. > **[List of countries by intentional homicide rate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate)** > > The list of countries by homicide rate is derived from United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime (UNODC) data, and is expressed in number of deaths per 100,000 population per year. For example, a homicide rate of 30 out of 100,000 is presented in the table as "30", and corresponds to 0.03% of the population dying by homicide. The reliability of underlying national murder rate data may vary. Only UNODC-vetted data is used in the main table to maintain consistency. In some cases, i Homicide rates ... > **[Countries Compared by Crime \> Murders \> Per capita. International...](https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Crime/Murders/Per-capita)** > > Number of convictions for intentional homicides in the given year. Per capita figures expressed per 1 million population. > **[IQ and the Wealth of Nations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_and_the_Wealth_of_Nations)** > > IQ and the Wealth of Nations is a 2002 book by psychologist Richard Lynn and political scientist Tatu Vanhanen. The authors argue that differences in national income (in the form of per capita gross domestic product) are correlated with differences in the average national intelligence quotient (IQ). They further argue that differences in average national IQs constitute one important factor, but not the only one, contributing to differences in national wealth and rates of economic growth. > The ... Most of this is explained in The 10,000 Year Explosion: How Civilization Accelerated Human Evolution. > **[Home - The 10k Year Explosion](https://the10000yearexplosion.com/)** ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/179 "2011-04-02T13:22:56Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > It’s interesting to note that any consideration of genetically-based differences among human populations becomes an inflammatory “hijack” in the minds of folks taught the they must maintain a core belief that Mother Nature has designed a system where there is no gene prevalence difference among these human populations. > > People believe this egalitarianism despite the fact that it is fundamentally a Creationist position, consistent only with a recent descent over a limited number of generations from a single tiny group. > > They believe it despite the fact that every other animal group shows remarkable variation with species sub-populations. > > They believe it despite multiple studies showing prevalence differences for any number of genes which vary among SIRE groups. > > They believe it despite reasonably well-worked out science showing dispersal of the human populations out of our African ancestry. > > They believe it despite a complete inability on the part of any group anywhere to eliminate differences by accounting for nurturing variables. > > They believe it despite quanitative testing which produces consistent results. Their approach here is to attack any quantitative test, be it formal IQ testing or standardized academic testing, repeating a completely unsupported mantra that such tests are somehow biased. It makes no difference that it would be impossible to create bias on an Medical School entrance test for quantitative sciences. It’s an article of faith that if a differential outcome is consistently observed among test takers with the same opportunity but from different groups, that alone is sufficient to prove the test must be flawed. > > They believe it despite the evidence in the world around them. If standardized testing ranks one group differently from another, and it has real-life correlation, we would expect to see evidence of that in the everyday world. If Asians outscore blacks in STEM testing, we’d expect to look at Asian countries and find some evidence of that. Consider the example of the Koreas. Here are two countries with reasonably similar populations living under two diametrically opposed economic systems, one of which has rendered its population wretchedly destitute and yet the raw intellect of North Korea has enabled them to develop modern rocketry and nuclear science. On the other hand, when we look at sub-saharan African countries (beyond imported expertise) we find no pockets of intellectual achievement in the STEM fields. Neither do we find individuals from those groups achieving STEM success elsewhere equivalent to emigrants from Asian countries. > > The strawmen arguments set up against the idea of “racism” comfort egalitarians. If, instead of simply attacking “racists” they actually had evidence, that’s what they should present. Instead of attacking IQ and SAT tests as biased, show the results of tests corrected for bias. Unfortunately, as the Ricci case (and more recently, the case of Dayton police exams) shows, the differential results by SIRE groups is universal and so far immutable. That we wish it were different does not change reality. It’s a fuzzy warm feeling that the Mbuit are going to have their place in the NBA some day, and that Hitler’s Aryans will return to sprinting glory, but it won’t happen. We can have the straight dope or we can have the spun dope. There may be good reason to argue that only the spun dope should be allowed to see the light of day here because we do not want the truth or because it is too uncomfortable for society to talk about it. If so, the next debate should be around a name change for the SDMB. Chief Pedant, This is so well thought out and well written, that I went to the internet to see if you copied and pasted most of it. Congratulations! You wrote it yourself. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Rotlla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/278dde/32.png) [@Rotlla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rotlla)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/180 "2011-04-02T13:29:15Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > When IQ testing began there was a fifteen point gap between average white and black scores. There still is a fifteen point gap. When IQ testing began there was a fifteen point gap between the average Italian or Irishman’s IQ scores and the average scores of people who were, at the time, culturally agreed upon as being “white”. Jews also tested as, in fact, lower in IQ than white people. Guess whether or not those “gaps” still exist. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767.md?page=10)