# Another Anti-Vax Nuttery Question: Gardasil **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 7, 2011, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-anti-vax-nuttery-question-gardasil/595501 "2011-09-07T15:50:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Mama\_Zappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-anti-vax-nuttery-question-gardasil/595501/21 "2011-09-08T14:03:08Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > He seems to have serious doubts about his ability to pass along moral precepts to his daughters. Heh - yeah… and even if he was confident in them, rape happens :(. (which is one reason FOR giving it even to my non-social kid). ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-anti-vax-nuttery-question-gardasil/595501/22 "2011-09-08T14:04:46Z")
> [@Mama\_Zappa](#): > > 1. There are concerns that while it blocks out some flavors of HPV, that may make room for others to become more prevalent. I don’t understand this concern, since HPV is basically endemic in the population. CDC says that 80% of sexually active American women will contract it at least once in their lifetime (most without symptoms). Remember, HPV is passed skin to skin, not through bodily fluids. You do not have to have PIV sex to contract it. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-anti-vax-nuttery-question-gardasil/595501/23 "2011-09-08T14:30:48Z")
> [@Mama\_Zappa](#): > > Egad. No, she knows she’s not allowed to date until she’s 25! 😃 As the mother of two daughters I heartily agree with this damn it. 😃 Then again my eight year old has already announced she’s married the eight year old boy next door. He wants a divorce but she won’t let him. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![6ImpossibleThingsB4Breakfast](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/6/e19adc/32.png) [@6ImpossibleThingsB4Breakfast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/6ImpossibleThingsB4Breakfast)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-anti-vax-nuttery-question-gardasil/595501/24 "2011-09-08T14:31:49Z")
[From a friend of mine](http://sanevax.org/steven-tunley-writes-to-60-minutes/) whose daughter has been adversely affected by this vaccine. For those who are interested, [here](http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:KyqgTQTPuMcJ:www.gardasilactiongroup.com/Gardasil/Links_files/PKdef.pdf+gardasil+action+group&hl=en&gl=au&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESheSLWSFF4scTZyWfnz4_qxzvPlYSQsDGRm3hd8LBPkgEUy4dSIkQE9HmoOP4_t88S4c_1kO6R3ti-gxPRDQP_RDZlgUYpwUyNRsq7qEBRAabiDXeXHmz82eW7LfGXmglKzkpn0&sig=AHIEtbQmAfomBk7oUrDBElMsfEVbxgbjbQ) is a brief account of his findings. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-anti-vax-nuttery-question-gardasil/595501/25 "2011-09-08T15:14:32Z")
> [@6ImpossibleThingsB4Breakfast](#): > > [From a friend of mine](http://sanevax.org/steven-tunley-writes-to-60-minutes/) whose daughter has been adversely affected by this vaccine. For those who are interested, [here](http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:KyqgTQTPuMcJ:www.gardasilactiongroup.com/Gardasil/Links_files/PKdef.pdf+gardasil+action+group&hl=en&gl=au&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESheSLWSFF4scTZyWfnz4_qxzvPlYSQsDGRm3hd8LBPkgEUy4dSIkQE9HmoOP4_t88S4c_1kO6R3ti-gxPRDQP_RDZlgUYpwUyNRsq7qEBRAabiDXeXHmz82eW7LfGXmglKzkpn0&sig=AHIEtbQmAfomBk7oUrDBElMsfEVbxgbjbQ) is a brief account of his findings. SaneVax (first link) is the antivax group that’s been promoting the DNA-in-Gardasil-omigod theory referred to previously. What I see in both links are anecdotal claims which don’t make sense. If it’s the same parent in both instances, he is on the one hand arguing that the vaccine caused autoimmune disease, then he’s suggesting that Gardasil "victims’ including his daughter have a hereditary enzyme deficiency worsened by the vaccine. In neither instance do we have any documentation of these diagnoses, much less a coherent case that Gardasil caused them. Instead, there’s comparison of vaccination to war crimes, ranting about Big Pharma profits, and an approving citation of antivaxer Russell Blaylock. Blaylock is a retired neurosurgeon who fancies himself a health expert, is cited on various loony websites and has appeared on the 700 Club and radio shows, touting his theories about such things as [the horrible dangers of vaccination](http://www.whale.to/a/blaylock34.html) (which he blames for causing autism, Gulf War Syndrome, Parkinson’s disease and Alzheimer’s disease, among others), aspartame and MSG. [His Wikipedia page](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell_Blaylock) includes this gem: _"Blaylock wrote that the Medical University of South Carolina (where he did his internship) was “deeply embroiled in a leftist-initiated war on Western Culture”._ Asserting that one is not anti-vaccine and then citing Blaylock does not enhance one’s credibility. ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Zappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-anti-vax-nuttery-question-gardasil/595501/26 "2011-09-08T15:26:39Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > I don’t understand this concern, since HPV is basically endemic in the population. CDC says that 80% of sexually active American women will contract it at least once in their lifetime (most without symptoms). > > Remember, HPV is passed skin to skin, not through bodily fluids. You do not have to have PIV sex to contract it. True. And the bit about the other variants taking over the niche left by the reduction in the Big Four, is something I’d heard a few times but never entirely made sense. I shouldn’t even have mentioned it. The other versions won’t become more prevalant just because they have no competition (it’s not like an animal ecosystem where you wipe out the apex predator and some lower-level predators suddenly fill the niche). So ignore that bullet, please :). She _will_, probably, get the vax at some point, I was just trying to illustrate somewhat less-nonsensical reasons why someone would proceed slowly (vs. the “permission to have sex” moron). ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-anti-vax-nuttery-question-gardasil/595501/27 "2011-09-08T16:04:47Z")
It should be noted that the CDC states this about how long the gardasil vaccine lasts: > [@](#): > > [http://www.cdc.gov/std/hpv/stdfact-hpv-vaccine-young-women.htm](http://www.cdc.gov/std/hpv/stdfact-hpv-vaccine-young-women.htm) > > How long does vaccine protection last? > > Research suggests that vaccine protection is long-lasting. Current studies (with up to about six years of follow-up data) indicate that the vaccines are effective, with no evidence of decreasing immunity. Many vaccines last a long time. The measles and hep b vaccines, for example, will provide immunity against those diseases for most people for the rest of their lives. There’s no evidence to think this won’t be true of the gardasil as well. ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-anti-vax-nuttery-question-gardasil/595501/28 "2011-09-08T16:06:31Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > Money, I’d guess. If vaccinating boys against HPV wouldn’t make that much difference if you’d already vaccinated all (or almost all) the girls, then there’s not a good cost-benefit argument to vaccinating the boys. Since it’s a new vaccination, time will tell how much difference it makes and if vaccinating boys is worth it cost-wise. I suppose you’re right. I guess my thinking was that if boys were vaccinated, it would somewhat protect those girls whose parents won’t allow it on moral grounds. But if the vaccine is not harmful to boys, or ineffective, then cost does seem the most likely explanation. ---
**Author:** ![6ImpossibleThingsB4Breakfast](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/6/e19adc/32.png) [@6ImpossibleThingsB4Breakfast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/6ImpossibleThingsB4Breakfast)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-anti-vax-nuttery-question-gardasil/595501/29 "2011-09-08T16:43:24Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > SaneVax (first link) is the antivax group that’s been promoting the DNA-in-Gardasil-omigod theory referred to previously. > > What I see in both links are anecdotal claims which don’t make sense. If it’s the same parent in both instances, he is on the one hand arguing that the vaccine caused autoimmune disease, then he’s suggesting that Gardasil "victims’ including his daughter have a hereditary enzyme deficiency worsened by the vaccine. In neither instance do we have any documentation of these diagnoses, much less a coherent case that Gardasil caused them. Instead, there’s comparison of vaccination to war crimes, ranting about Big Pharma profits, and an approving citation of antivaxer Russell Blaylock. Blaylock is a retired neurosurgeon who fancies himself a health expert, is cited on various loony websites and has appeared on the 700 Club and radio shows, touting his theories about such things as [the horrible dangers of vaccination](http://www.whale.to/a/blaylock34.html) (which he blames for causing autism, Gulf War Syndrome, Parkinson’s disease and Alzheimer’s disease, among others), aspartame and MSG. [His Wikipedia page](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell_Blaylock) includes this gem: > > _"Blaylock wrote that the Medical University of South Carolina (where he did his internship) was “deeply embroiled in a leftist-initiated war on Western Culture”._ > > Asserting that one is not anti-vaccine and then citing Blaylock does not enhance one’s credibility. I understand your point, **Jackmannii**. Lack of cohesive information seems to be part of the issue. Though he has personally met with the Australian Health Minister, and the Chief Medical Officer of Australia with comprehensive data in relation to the health issues of Gardasil, it is still considered a safe and effective vaccine - which I’m sure it is to most, but certainly not all. It appears that worldwide, all those who have not found it as such, are given the brush off. From what I understand, objective scientific evidence in support of the of those who have died, or who experience continuing debilitation (when in prior good health) is non-existant. And I’m not sure that that simply means that the claims made by ‘victims’ have no credibility. ---
**Author:** ![mnemosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c4cdca/32.png) [@mnemosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mnemosyne)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-anti-vax-nuttery-question-gardasil/595501/30 "2011-09-08T17:05:11Z")
> [@Washoe](#): > > …fresh new menace from the bowels of Merck… In their defence, the [Montreal facility](http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/images/news/topstories/2010/07/08/tp-merck-0709.jpg), at least, is really [rather scary](http://maps.google.ca/maps?q=merck+montreal&hl=en&ll=45.456789,-73.842566&spn=0.011379,0.020106&sll=49.891235,-97.15369&sspn=43.090146,82.353516&vpsrc=6&t=h&z=16&layer=c&cbll=45.456749,-73.842748&panoid=2KPq8sKOsrKgau8NVZXKRA&cbp=12,350.41,,0,0.51) looking. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![emmaliminal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7bcc69/32.png) [@emmaliminal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emmaliminal)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-anti-vax-nuttery-question-gardasil/595501/31 "2011-09-08T17:07:31Z")
> [@PaulParkhead](#): > > … I guess my thinking was that if boys were vaccinated, it would somewhat protect those girls whose parents won’t allow it on moral grounds. But if the vaccine is not harmful to boys, or ineffective, then cost does seem the most likely explanation. As a survivor of tongue cancer (treated at age 40) that I almost certainly got due to exposure to HPV (at age 19), I would like to encourage **parents of girls AND boys: get them vaccinated**. There has been a substantial rise in oral cancers recently among younger people – it used to be a specialty of old men smokers and alcoholics. I had surgery in Boston but got chemo and radiation an hour north of Boston, in interior New England; in Boston, the docs are getting used to treating younger patients, but I was the only under-60 oral cancer patient the New Englanders had had yet. There are occasional pieces in the media about this, but it lags far behind the public understanding of HPV leading to cervical cancer. If your kid has a tongue, get the kid vaccinated. If your kid is a boy, you might have to pay full price. I promise it’s cheaper than cancer treatment. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-anti-vax-nuttery-question-gardasil/595501/32 "2011-09-08T17:43:28Z")
> [@6ImpossibleThingsB4Breakfast](#): > > Lack of cohesive information seems to be part of the issue. Definitely. With reference to your friend’s daughter, we are presented with confusing and undocumented medical claims and asked to believe the vaccine is responsible through unexplained, illogical mechanisms. On the other hand, we have good information on Gardasil’s safety, including clinical followup after it and a competing vaccine went on the market. [Here’s a 2011 study](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21673418) that compared clinical information in VAERS and other reporting databases to the manufacturers’ data on safety contained in the SPC, or Summary of Product Characteristics: _“CONCLUSION: The post licensure safety profile of both vaccines is consistent with the data in the SPC of these vaccines.”_ In other words, the vaccine manufacturers’ assessment of safety has been borne out in clinical practice. > [@](#): > > It appears that worldwide, all those who have not found it as such, are given the brush off. It does not appear that way to me. Clinical surveillance has not turned up evidence that HPV vaccines are unsafe; recognition of this does not mean that claims to the contrary are ignored, but rather that they lack substance. ---
**Author:** ![TurboNuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f19dbf/32.png) [@TurboNuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TurboNuke)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2011, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-anti-vax-nuttery-question-gardasil/595501/33 "2011-09-09T01:20:47Z")
I heard they aren’t recommending it for boys since there are some side effects from getting vaccines and since the cancers that guys get from HPV are pretty rare, that the overall effect is negative for guys. My wife just had a hysterectomy due to uterine cancer. She’d had cervical cancer about 5 years ago because of HPV. So, yeah, I wish the vaccine had been available years ago. I’d recommend it for boys and girls, because it’s better for everyone as a group, but I’m not the CDC. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2011, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-anti-vax-nuttery-question-gardasil/595501/34 "2011-09-09T01:43:45Z")
Gardisil _is_ available and approved for males. [The CDC on the FDA approval for males:](http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5920a5.htm?s_cid=mm5920a5_e) > [@](#): > > On October 16, 2009, the Food and Drug Administration licensed quadrivalent human papillomavirus vaccine (HPV4; Gardasil, Merck & Co. Inc.) for use in males aged 9 through 26 years for prevention of genital warts caused by human papillomavirus (HPV) types 6 and 11. HPV4 had been licensed previously for use in females aged 9 through 26 years for prevention of HPV 6, 11, 16, and 18-related outcomes (i.e., vaginal, vulvar, and cervical precancers and cancers and genital warts). … Mathematical modeling suggests that adding male HPV vaccination to a female-only HPV vaccination program is not the most cost-effective vaccination strategy for reducing the overall burden of HPV-associated conditions in males and females when vaccination coverage of females is high (\>80%) (7). When coverage of females is less than 80%, male vaccination might be cost-effective, although results vary substantially across models (7). Because the health burden is greater in females than males, and numerous models have shown vaccination of adolescent girls to be a cost-effective use of public health resources, improving coverage in females aged 11 and 12 years could potentially be a more effective and cost-effective strategy than adding male vaccination. Insurance companies have been covering it in our neck of the woods, as does the [Vaccine for Children Program](http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/programs/vfc/downloads/resolutions/1009hpv-508.pdf). I think it is a good idea although not a Good Idea let alone a GOOD IDEA. ---
**Author:** ![Alley\_Dweller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alley_dweller/32/430_2.png) [@Alley\_Dweller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alley_Dweller)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2011, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-anti-vax-nuttery-question-gardasil/595501/35 "2011-09-09T05:06:43Z")
According to [this article](http://www.forbes.com/2010/07/21/hpv-throat-cancer-health-lifestyle-vaccine-controversy_2.html), HPV causes cancers that grow very slowly. In the case of cervical cancers we have pap smears that detect pre-cancerous lesions very early. The maker of Gardasil used these tests to prove the vaccine works. There is no analogous test for throat cancer. To prove the vaccine is effective, the makers would have to follow boys for decades to determine whether rates of cancer were reduced. Without this kind of study, the best that they could prove is that the vaccine reduces the rate of HPV infections in the throat not that it reduces cancer. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2011, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-anti-vax-nuttery-question-gardasil/595501/36 "2011-09-09T12:33:25Z")
> [@Alley\_Dweller](#): > > According to [this article](http://www.forbes.com/2010/07/21/hpv-throat-cancer-health-lifestyle-vaccine-controversy_2.html), HPV causes cancers that grow very slowly. In the case of cervical cancers we have pap smears that detect pre-cancerous lesions very early. Two things to note here. It’s not that cervical cancer grows slowly, it’s that it typically takes years for a precancerous HPV lesion to develop into an invasive tumor, starting with dysplasia that may progress to invasive carcinoma (which moves more quickly). And while Pap tests have been instrumental in greatly lowering the incidence of cervical cancer, they can’t detect all cases. Additionally of course, Pap tests do nothing to prevent the development of precancerous lesions and tumors that require so much testing and surgical intervention. ---
**Author:** ![corvidae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/898d66/32.png) [@corvidae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/corvidae)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2011, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-anti-vax-nuttery-question-gardasil/595501/37 "2011-09-09T13:59:34Z")
> [@Mama\_Zappa](#): > > What if his daughter gets married at age 22, to a fellow who had one or two indiscretions before Seeing The Light, coming clean, and committing to monogamy. And one of that fellow’s past relationships happened to be with young ladies who’d be VERY indiscriminate, and had gotten HPV as a result… I work in a pediatric practice, and before Gardasil was covered for grade 8 girls in Ontario, I used to give it in the office. We had a large orthodox Jewish population in the practice and I had a number of parents express some doubts about getting the vaccine, since the kids were, in theory at least, not sexually active until marriage. I would explain to them that their kids’ behavior may be exemplary, but they can never be sure about their kids’ chosen partners. Many people did end up getting the vaccine. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2011, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-anti-vax-nuttery-question-gardasil/595501/38 "2011-09-09T14:02:44Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Two things to note here. > > It’s not that cervical cancer grows slowly, it’s that it typically takes years for a precancerous HPV lesion to develop into an invasive tumor, starting with dysplasia that may progress to invasive carcinoma (which moves more quickly). > > And while Pap tests have been instrumental in greatly lowering the incidence of cervical cancer, they can’t detect all cases. Additionally of course, Pap tests do nothing to prevent the development of precancerous lesions and tumors that require so much testing and surgical intervention. Typically, perhaps, but not always. I went from annual clean Paps my entire life to cervical cancer in the space of a year. Good thing I didn’t skip a year. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-anti-vax-nuttery-question-gardasil/595501.md?page=1)