# Another argument for "death penalty" over "life in prison" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 10, 2010, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-argument-for-death-penalty-over-life-in-prison/549822 "2010-08-10T14:13:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-argument-for-death-penalty-over-life-in-prison/549822/21 "2010-08-11T01:08:49Z")
I saw a program last night that said you can not ignore private prisons in the equation. They cut guards to the bone and cut training to improve profits. They have little interest in safety when it is in competition with profits. Their claim of being secure is propaganda to get more prisoners under their control. Get rid of private prisons. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-argument-for-death-penalty-over-life-in-prison/549822/22 "2010-08-11T01:12:42Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > 1.2% of murderers commit another homicide within three years of their release ([cite](http://ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/rpr94.pdf)). 98.8% don’t. Kill them too? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-argument-for-death-penalty-over-life-in-prison/549822/23 "2010-08-11T01:48:41Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > When the innocent are killed, that’s a terrible thing, no doubt about it. Why should we simply accept that innocents are going to be murdered by those who should have been executed but not accept that some innocent might be executed from time to time? Would you be willing to be one of those innocents? ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-argument-for-death-penalty-over-life-in-prison/549822/24 "2010-08-11T01:54:59Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > When the innocent are killed, that’s a terrible thing, no doubt about it. Why should we simply accept that innocents are going to be murdered by those who should have been executed but not accept that some innocent might be executed from time to time? I don’t suppose you’d like to apply this argument to fetuses? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-argument-for-death-penalty-over-life-in-prison/549822/25 "2010-08-11T01:55:41Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > > [@Shodan](#): > > > > When the innocent are killed, that’s a terrible thing, no doubt about it. Why should we simply accept that innocents are going to be murdered by those who should have been executed but not accept that some innocent might be executed from time to time? > > Would you be willing to be one of those innocents? OR would you be willing to _directly_ kill someone on death row? ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-argument-for-death-penalty-over-life-in-prison/549822/26 "2010-08-11T06:14:35Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > Suppose that, with a death penalty, we execute a whole bunch of guilty and a couple of innocents. Or, without a death penalty, somebody who would otherwise have been executed escapes and kills a couple of innocents. Isn’t the first situation much worse? I cannot fathom why you would think the first situation is worse than the second. Please explain your reasoning. ---
**Author:** ![qpw3141](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/6bbea6/32.png) [@qpw3141](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/qpw3141)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-argument-for-death-penalty-over-life-in-prison/549822/27 "2010-08-11T09:27:35Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > > [@spark240](#): > > > > Suppose that, with a death penalty, we execute a whole bunch of guilty and a couple of innocents. Or, without a death penalty, somebody who would otherwise have been executed escapes and kills a couple of innocents. Isn’t the first situation much worse? > > I cannot fathom why you would think the first situation is worse than the second. Please explain your reasoning. Well, one line of arguing could be that in the second case a murderer has killed people. That’s what murderers do. In the first case, the supposed law abiding and righteous have killed people. That’s not what the law abiding and righteous are supposed to do. If I was innocent of any crime and absolutely had to die at the hands of man I’d far rather be murdered by someone who would be held as wrong for what they had done than, effectively, the whole of society who (as a group) believed they had done nothing wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-argument-for-death-penalty-over-life-in-prison/549822/28 "2010-08-11T13:46:06Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > I cannot fathom why you would think the first situation is worse than the second. Please explain your reasoning. Look at it this way. First situation, execute 1000 convicted criminals, and there’s a couple of wrongly accused innocents among them. Result: 2 dead innocents, and 998 dead other people. Second situation, don’t execute 1000 convicted criminals, one of them escapes and kills 2 innocent people. Result, 2 dead innocents, 998 other people stay alive, and the 2 wrongly accused innocents survive to be acquitted later. Which would you prefer? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-argument-for-death-penalty-over-life-in-prison/549822/29 "2010-08-11T14:01:02Z")
Thing is, a more realistic death penalty scenario is that you have those 1000 inmates; you execute some including those two innocents. And two criminals not on death row escape and kill some people. So in the end you have dead innocents at the hands of both the state and at the hands of criminals. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-argument-for-death-penalty-over-life-in-prison/549822/30 "2010-08-11T14:10:12Z")
For that matter, the vast majority of murders are committed by people with no prior murder convictions. Might as well start executing the car thieves, just to be safe. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-argument-for-death-penalty-over-life-in-prison/549822/31 "2010-08-11T14:31:19Z")
[An honest murderer](http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/06/12/prisoner-killed-cellmate-says-way-stop-death-row-vows-appeal/): > [@](#): > > For seven days, Robert Gleason Jr. begged correctional officers and counselors at Wallens Ridge State Prison to move his new cellmate. The constant singing, screaming and obnoxious behavior were too much, and Gleason knew he was ready to snap > … > Now, Gleason says he’ll kill again if he isn’t put to death for killing Watson, who had a history of mental illness. And he says his next victim won’t be an inmate. “I murdered that man cold-bloodedly. I planned it, and I’m gonna do it again,” the 40-year-old Gleason told The Associated Press. “Someone needs to stop it. The only way to stop me is put me on death row.” > … > Gleason already is serving a life sentence for killing another man. He fired his lawyers last month — they were trying to work out a deal to keep him from getting the death penalty — so he could plead guilty to capital murder. He’s vowed not to appeal his sentence if the judge sentences him to death Aug. 31. > … > “There’s nothing you guys can do to me to hurt me. Nothing,” he told the prosecutor. “But there’s something you guys can do to prevent someone else from getting hurt.” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-argument-for-death-penalty-over-life-in-prison/549822/32 "2010-08-11T14:34:41Z")
> [@Max\_Torque](#): > > [An honest murderer](http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/06/12/prisoner-killed-cellmate-says-way-stop-death-row-vows-appeal/): Fascinating. Good thing we don’t let convicted criminals decide their own fate, eh? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-argument-for-death-penalty-over-life-in-prison/549822/33 "2010-08-11T14:57:43Z")
Look, true believers one one side or the other of this issue have their well-trodden arguments, and cannot be swayed. Nor will most of them admit that the adoption of their position over the other carries real costs and consequences. This is necessarily so - there are trade-offs here that cannot be ignored. I admire the job the prosecutors do in my county, and they have a lot of experience bringing death-penalty cases to court. (This was the office responsible for prosecuting the Beltway snipers, among others.) They do this in an ethical fashion, by all accounts. If this was so across the country, and if this application of the death penalty did not create massive coordination problems with international law enforcement, I would support it right down the line. It isn’t, and it does cause these problems, so I have to oppose it, including in my county where it is practiced rather well. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-argument-for-death-penalty-over-life-in-prison/549822/34 "2010-08-11T21:24:24Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > > [@elfkin477](#): > > > > I cannot fathom why you would think the first situation is worse than the second. Please explain your reasoning. > > Look at it this way. > > First situation, execute 1000 convicted criminals, and there’s a couple of wrongly accused innocents among them. Result: 2 dead innocents, and 998 dead other people. > > Second situation, don’t execute 1000 convicted criminals, one of them escapes and kills 2 innocent people. Result, 2 dead innocents, 998 other people stay alive, and the 2 wrongly accused innocents survive to be acquitted later. > > Which would you prefer? The first situation. Two innocent people will die either way. In the second situation the recidivism rate for murderers guarantees that some of those 998 people, virtually none of whom will really spend the rest of their lives in jail given even a “life sentence” so often comes with the option for parole [after serving 15-35 years](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_imprisonment#Overview_by_jurisdiction), will go on to kill again; one of two large scale studies conducted by the Bureau of Justice concluded that 6.6% of released murderers will be rearrested for murder cite (go to page 2). That’s ~60 more innocent people who will be killed _that we know about_. In the first situation, when the murderers have been put to death, the recidivism rate is 0% so no more than the two innocent people who were going to die either way do. So which do you think is worse: two people who have the chance to go through several years of appeals processes being failed by the system, or at least 62 innocent people being murdered? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-argument-for-death-penalty-over-life-in-prison/549822/35 "2010-08-11T21:55:36Z")
Again, I’m going to oppose the death penalty here, but I’m going to do so with full understanding that this position carries some social cost. It would not be fair for me to pretend that everything would be sunshine and posies for choosing this option - just that it is the least bad of the options presented. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-argument-for-death-penalty-over-life-in-prison/549822/36 "2010-08-11T22:03:09Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > The first situation. > > Two innocent people will die either way. In the second situation the recidivism rate for murderers guarantees that some of those 998 people, virtually none of whom will really spend the rest of their lives in jail given even a “life sentence” so often comes with the option for parole [after serving 15-35 years](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_imprisonment#Overview_by_jurisdiction), will go on to kill again; one of two large scale studies conducted by the Bureau of Justice concluded that 6.6% of released murderers will be rearrested for murder cite (go to page 2). That’s ~60 more innocent people who will be killed _that we know about_. > > In the first situation, when the murderers have been put to death, the recidivism rate is 0% so no more than the two innocent people who were going to die either way do. > > So which do you think is worse: two people who have the chance to go through several years of appeals processes being failed by the system, or at least 62 innocent people being murdered? Your cite does not distinguish life imprisonment from life without parole, which is a human alternative to the death penalty. So arguing about the recidivism rate of those sentenced to life without parole after they are paroled seems rather foolish. The assumption in the post you are responding to of a 99.8% conviction accuracy rate is not supported by any evidence I’ve ever seen. I posted a link showing there were at least 13 innocent people on Illinois death row, and I suspect they did a better job than a place like Texas. We really need to compare the number of expected murders by life without parole murderers escaping versus those wrongfully convicted. In this universe, I’d say the latter number is far bigger. ---
**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-argument-for-death-penalty-over-life-in-prison/549822/37 "2010-08-12T01:42:43Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > > [@Shodan](#): > > > > When the innocent are killed, that’s a terrible thing, no doubt about it. Why should we simply accept that innocents are going to be murdered by those who should have been executed but not accept that some innocent might be executed from time to time? > > Would you be willing to be one of those innocents? Can anyone argue against that question? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-argument-for-death-penalty-over-life-in-prison/549822/38 "2010-08-12T01:57:16Z")
> [@mascaroni](#): > > > [@Guinastasia](#): > > > > Would you be willing to be one of those innocents? > > Can anyone argue against that question? Which is my whole point. For those who say that “well, sometimes we’ll make a mistake,” I sincerely want to know if YOU would be willing to BE that mistake. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-argument-for-death-penalty-over-life-in-prison/549822/39 "2010-08-12T02:46:22Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Thank God nobody ever escapes from death row! Not\* after \*the execution, they don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-argument-for-death-penalty-over-life-in-prison/549822/40 "2010-08-12T14:25:27Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > First situation, execute 1000 convicted criminals, and there’s a couple of wrongly accused innocents among them. Result: 2 dead innocents, and 998 dead other people. > > Second situation, don’t execute 1000 convicted criminals, one of them escapes and kills 2 innocent people. Result, 2 dead innocents, 998 other people stay alive, and the 2 wrongly accused innocents survive to be acquitted later. > > Which would you prefer? Why do you think they’d need to escape? In the only year for which I’ve discovered numbers (1999), eight murders were committed in Texas prisons. Three of those eight murders were committed by capital murderers who had received life sentences rather than capital punishment, more than their share considering they’re such a small percentage of the prison population. Capital murderers kill and injure other inmates and prison guards every year. You need to account for that in your calculus. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-argument-for-death-penalty-over-life-in-prison/549822.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-argument-for-death-penalty-over-life-in-prison/549822.md?page=3)