# Another argument for "death penalty" over "life in prison"

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-argument-for-death-penalty-over-life-in-prison/549822>\
**Category:** Great Debates\
**Created:** [August 10, 2010, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-argument-for-death-penalty-over-life-in-prison/549822 "2010-08-10T14:13:56Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 11\
**Page:** 3

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**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\
**Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-argument-for-death-penalty-over-life-in-prison/549822/41 "2010-08-12T14:42:08Z")

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> [@Max\_Torque](#):
>
> Why do you think they’d need to escape?

If you think it makes a difference, feel free to delete “one of them escapes and kills 2 innocent people” and substitute “one of them kills 2 people while still in prison.” That doesn’t really affect my point.

> [@](#):
>
> In the only year for which I’ve discovered numbers (1999), eight murders were committed in Texas prisons. Three of those eight murders were committed by capital murderers who had received life sentences rather than capital punishment, more than their share considering they’re such a small percentage of the prison population. Capital murderers kill and injure other inmates and prison guards every year. You need to account for that in your calculus.

Texas uses the death penalty a lot, and that failed to prevent those murders.

Tell me, how would you predict which murderers are going to kill again? In order to prevent those three murders you cite, you would need a foolproof method. Either that, or you would have to execute all of them, without exception.

But some of those convicted murderers turn out to be innocent later. If you execute all of them, you would prevent maybe three murders, but also execute five or six innocent people.

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**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\
**Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-argument-for-death-penalty-over-life-in-prison/549822/42 "2010-08-12T16:00:30Z")

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> [@Voyager](#):
>
> > [@elfkin477](#):
> >
> > The first situation.
> > 
> > Two innocent people will die either way. In the second situation the recidivism rate for murderers guarantees that some of those 998 people, virtually none of whom will really spend the rest of their lives in jail given even a “life sentence” so often comes with the option for parole [after serving 15-35 years](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_imprisonment#Overview_by_jurisdiction), will go on to kill again; one of two large scale studies conducted by the Bureau of Justice concluded that 6.6% of released murderers will be rearrested for murder cite (go to page 2). That’s ~60 more innocent people who will be killed _that we know about_.
> > 
> > In the first situation, when the murderers have been put to death, the recidivism rate is 0% so no more than the two innocent people who were going to die either way do.
> > 
> > So which do you think is worse: two people who have the chance to go through several years of appeals processes being failed by the system, or at least 62 innocent people being murdered?
> 
> Your cite does not distinguish life imprisonment from life without parole, which is a human alternative to the death penalty. So arguing about the recidivism rate of those sentenced to life without parole after they are paroled seems rather foolish.
> 
> The assumption in the post you are responding to of a 99.8% conviction accuracy rate is not supported by any evidence I’ve ever seen. I posted a link showing there were at least 13 innocent people on Illinois death row, and I suspect they did a better job than a place like Texas. We really need to compare the number of expected murders by life without parole murderers escaping versus those wrongfully convicted. In this universe, I’d say the latter number is far bigger.

Look for a cite that says that a person who commits murder is more likely to get life without parole than a life sentence with parole, or less than a life sentence to begin with. You won’t find one.

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**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\
**Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-argument-for-death-penalty-over-life-in-prison/549822/43 "2010-08-12T16:30:06Z")

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> [@elfkin477](#):
>
> Look for a cite that says that a person who commits murder is more likely to get life without parole than a life sentence with parole, or less than a life sentence to begin with. You won’t find one.

We’re comparing the death penalty with other alternatives. Do you think a jury and prosecutor who don’t go after life without parole will go after the death penalty instead? In many states you have to show special circumstances for a death penalty charge. Or are you confusing different degrees of murder? Are you proposing the death penalty for second degree murder, for instance?

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**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\
**Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-argument-for-death-penalty-over-life-in-prison/549822/44 "2010-08-12T16:36:12Z")

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> [@elfkin477](#):
>
> The first situation.

Really? You’d pick 1000 deaths over 2 deaths?

> [@](#):
>
> Two innocent people will die either way. In the second situation the recidivism rate for murderers guarantees that some of those 998 people, virtually none of whom will really spend the rest of their lives in jail given even a “life sentence” so often comes with the option for parole [after serving 15-35 years](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_imprisonment#Overview_by_jurisdiction), will go on to kill again;

You are changing the example given. In my example, I already accounted for 2 murders by recidivists. You attempt to change that by saying that some of the others will also be recidivists.

> [@](#):
>
> one of two large scale studies conducted by the Bureau of Justice concluded that 6.6% of released murderers will be rearrested for murder cite (go to page 2). That’s ~60 more innocent people who will be killed _that we know about_.

This study is often cited in these debates, but you are misunderstanding what it means. It only shows that 6.6% were arrested, not that 6.6% were guilty.

Thing is, when investigating a crime, the police might “round up the usual suspects” that is they arrest and question many different people with a previous record for similar crimes. Arrest rate and

> [@](#):
>
> In the first situation, when the murderers have been put to death, the recidivism rate is 0% so no more than the two innocent people who were going to die either way do.

Wrong. When the murderers have been put to death, a thousand people would be dead. Including 2 innocents and 998 others.

> [@](#):
>
> So which do you think is worse: two people who have the chance to go through several years of appeals processes being failed by the system, or at least 62 innocent people being murdered?

If the second of those actually existed it would be worse. But it doesn’t.

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**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\
**Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-argument-for-death-penalty-over-life-in-prison/549822/45 "2010-08-12T16:53:19Z")

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> [@Peter\_Morris](#):
>
> Thing is, when investigating a crime, the police might “round up the usual suspects” that is they arrest and question many different people with a previous record for similar crimes. Arrest rate and

oops. Brain fart.

Arrest rate and recidivism rate are not the same thing.

It is fair to say that they are proportional. It’s only meaningful if you compare it to something else. If State A has 3% rearrest rate, and State B has 6% rearrest rate, you can say that State A has lower recidivism, you can’t say what the actual rate is.

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**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\
**Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-argument-for-death-penalty-over-life-in-prison/549822/46 "2010-08-12T18:41:39Z")

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Two names that should always be remembered in discussions of this type are [Gary Tison](http://www.amazon.com/Last-Rampage-Escape-Gary-Tison/dp/0816519676) and [Kenneth McDuff](http://www.crimelife.com/killers/mcduff.html).

Tison and the rest of his gang were involved in a 1978 Arizona prison break that resulted in the murders of six people while they were on the run. In the shootout that ended the break, one of Tison’s sons was shot dead. Tison had been serving life for murdering a cop; one of his accomplices was a serial killer who enjoyed sneaking up on and shooting truck drivers at rest stops. The accomplice eventually was executed; Tison died of exposure in the desert.

Kenneth McDuff went to death row in 1966 for murdering three young people (the two women were raped first). His death sentence got commuted due to the Supreme Court’s ruling against the death penalty in 1972, and he was eventually paroled. He murdered at least five more women, including one who was kidnapped from a car wash. Estimates of his total victims range up to 14. He was finally executed, just a bit too late.

Of course, innocents sometimes have to die so the state can keep its hands clean. This includes not just those murdered by escaped or released murderers, but prison inmates killed by murderers behind bars, and prison employees who get in the way.

It’s the price we pay for enlightened justice. Of course, _we_ probably won’t have to pay it, but you get the idea.

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**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\
**Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-argument-for-death-penalty-over-life-in-prison/549822/47 "2010-08-12T20:45:25Z")

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> [@Peter\_Morris](#):
>
> Wrong. When the murderers have been put to death, a thousand people would be dead. Including 2 innocents and 998 others.

That’s your idea of a gotcha? Did I say the murderers wouldn’t be dead? No. I was talking about the numbers of **innocent** people dead in the two situations. You know, people who aren’t in jail after killing others.

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**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\
**Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-argument-for-death-penalty-over-life-in-prison/549822/48 "2010-08-12T22:01:32Z")

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> [@Jackmannii](#):
>
> …Of course, innocents sometimes have to die so the state can keep its hands clean…  
> …It’s the price we pay for enlightened justice. Of course, _we_ probably won’t have to pay it, but you get the idea.

I’ll quote **Guinastasia** … “Would you be willing to be one those innocents?”

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**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\
**Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-argument-for-death-penalty-over-life-in-prison/549822/49 "2010-08-12T22:36:31Z")

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> [@Bricker](#):
>
> > [@Max\_Torque](#):
> >
> > [An honest murderer](http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/06/12/prisoner-killed-cellmate-says-way-stop-death-row-vows-appeal/):
> 
> Fascinating.
> 
> Good thing we don’t let convicted criminals decide their own fate, eh?

Looking through Gary Gilmore’s eyes…

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**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\
**Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-argument-for-death-penalty-over-life-in-prison/549822/50 "2010-08-14T04:03:24Z")

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> [@elfkin477](#):
>
> That’s your idea of a gotcha? Did I say the murderers wouldn’t be dead?

Yes, you did. You stated clearly that it would only kill 2 people.

> [@](#):
>
> No. I was talking about the numbers of **innocent** people dead in the two situations. You know, people who aren’t in jail after killing others.

So, you just want them dead for the sake of wanting them dead, without actually serving any purpose.

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**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\
**Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-argument-for-death-penalty-over-life-in-prison/549822/51 "2010-08-14T18:44:22Z")

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> [@kingbighair](#):
>
> Yes. The state killing a person is far worse than a criminal doing the same. The criminal is a human, and humans are sometimes licentious. We accept that and punish them accordingly because we seek to maintain a society. The state is not human. It is more than a collection of humans - it is an ideal. We hold the state to a higher standard, and part of that higher standard is the ability to not commit the barbaric act of murder.

But the state does not commit murder, by definition. Murder is a crime of passion in which the victims are not given a chance to defend themselves. Execution does not fit that definition by any stretch of the imagination.

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