# Another Attack on Democracy **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 8, 2004, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-attack-on-democracy/249239 "2004-06-08T04:59:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![cmason32](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@cmason32](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmason32)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2004, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-attack-on-democracy/249239/1 "2004-06-08T04:59:30Z")
> **[A Bill Eases Vote Curb On Churches (Published 2004)](https://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/08/us/a-bill-eases-vote-curb-on-churches.html)** > > House Republicans quietly introduce measure to make it easier for churches to support political candidates, just days after Bush campaign comes under fire from liberal groups for inviting church members to distribute campaign information at their... > [@](#): > > Republicans in the House of Representatives have quietly introduced a measure to make it easier for churches to support political candidates, just days after the Bush campaign came under fire from liberal groups for inviting church members to distribute campaign information at their houses of worship. > > Representative Bill Thomas of California, chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee, added the measure to a much larger bill, introduced in the committee on Friday, that centers on revising certain corporate taxes. The provision, called Safe Harbor for Churches, would allow religious organizations a limited number of violations of the existing rules against political endorsements without jeopardizing their tax-exempt status. > > Although its chances of enactment are uncertain, Democrats and other critics of the proposal argue that its timing suggests that Republicans are trying to bend the tax rules in time to help the president’s re-election campaign. > > Last week, an effort by the campaign to enlist members of “friendly congregations” in distributing campaign information at their places of worship came to light in the form of a message e-mailed to some members of the clergy and other people in Pennsylvania, and legal experts warned that any implicit endorsement of one candidate over another could jeopardize a religious group’s tax-exempt status. > > “It looks suspicious,” Daniel Maffei, communications director for the Democratic minority on the committee, said of Mr. Thomas’s proposal. It looks suspicious? Are you fucking kidding me? This is a brazen attempt by the party in power to circumvent the rules for their own purposes. The fact that it occurred a week after Bush’s outreach program isn’t “suspicious,” it’s a smoking gun! It’s obvious the GOP is doing this because they want to use churches in the election season and, since the rules don’t permit them to do so, they’ll just change them to suit their needs. If we allow a party, either party, to change to rules for their partisan needs then we’re further corrupting an already corrupted process. The system is fucked up enough without people trying to pull a fast one like this. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2004, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-attack-on-democracy/249239/2 "2004-06-08T05:38:11Z")
Can someone tell me why it would be wrong for a tax-exempt organization to advocate a particular candidate? ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2004, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-attack-on-democracy/249239/3 "2004-06-08T05:59:28Z")
> [@spooje](#): > > Can someone tell me why it would be wrong for a tax-exempt organization to advocate a particular candidate? Because then you are indirectly forcing all the other taxpayers to subsidize a partisan organization. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2004, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-attack-on-democracy/249239/4 "2004-06-08T06:15:17Z")
Heh. The situation with the unions has been going on for how long? Turn-about is fair play. ---
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2004, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-attack-on-democracy/249239/5 "2004-06-08T06:19:00Z")
Unions are tax-exempt? ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2004, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-attack-on-democracy/249239/6 "2004-06-08T06:20:31Z")
Is the Sierra club taxed? ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2004, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-attack-on-democracy/249239/7 "2004-06-08T06:21:42Z")
Aspects are. The NEAs dues, for instance, are tax-exempt. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2004, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-attack-on-democracy/249239/8 "2004-06-08T06:24:20Z")
Was that Unions or the Sierra Club? ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2004, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-attack-on-democracy/249239/9 "2004-06-08T06:32:27Z")
> [@spooje](#): > > Was that Unions or the Sierra Club? The NEA is the largest teachers union in the country. The Sierra Club, on the other hand, is not tax-exempt. The Sierra Club Foundation is. ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2004, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-attack-on-democracy/249239/10 "2004-06-08T07:05:32Z")
It’s all a big money game anyway, no matter if the money is coming from dues or donations. At least with unions, there’ used to be a sliver of an honest objective in making a liveable working environment for their members, and forcing dishonest corporations to treat their workers fairly. (not really true anymore though, unions are as corrupt as the gov’t, this coming from a card carrying Teamster) The problem I have with churches who support politicians is that they try to inject morality into something that defies morality, politics. Churches who mobilize their members to action, ought not have any more protection than protest groups like Greenpeace, yet they often do, your donation to Greenpeace is not tax deductable, yet your donation to St. Michaels, is. [minirant] This fact alone belies the fact that no matter the political party affiliation, that the only green anyone gives a shite about is money [/minirant] IMO, it’s not the business of the church to try and influence politics and politicians, it’s the business of the church to insure the spiritual, (and in some cases physical) well being of their congreates, and tending to the needs of the community, rather than being a force for political action. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2004, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-attack-on-democracy/249239/11 "2004-06-08T07:17:17Z")
> [@buttonjockey308](#): > > The problem I have with churches who support politicians is that they try to inject morality into something that defies morality, politics. Churches who mobilize their members to action, ought not have any more protection than protest groups like Greenpeace, yet they often do, your donation to Greenpeace is not tax deductable, yet your donation to St. Michaels, is. But your donation to the ‘Greenpeace Fund’ is tax-deductable. All sorts of ways to get around those pesky laws, you know. ---
**Author:** ![cmason32](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@cmason32](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmason32)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2004, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-attack-on-democracy/249239/12 "2004-06-08T07:21:00Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > Heh. The situation with the unions has been going on for how long? Turn-about is fair play. IIRC, unions are not exempt under the same form. Rather, they file IRS form 1024. Tax exempt organizations are allowed to get involved in political activity if their main purpose is to promote the social welfare. However, my argument isn’t that churches should or should not be allowed to engage in political activty. Instead, it’s that the GOP is trying to change the rules at the precise moment it becomes advantageous to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2004, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-attack-on-democracy/249239/13 "2004-06-08T07:24:04Z")
> [@cmason32](#): > > However, my argument isn’t that churches should or should not be allowed to engage in political activty. Instead, it’s that the GOP is trying to change the rules at the precise moment it becomes advantageous to do so. And they should instead wait for…? You may have something if the Dems collectively renounced all that soft-money and help that comes from the unions and other lefty groups. But since they are up to their necks in AFL-CIO endorsements and NEA contributions and whatnot, fuck 'em. Fuck 'em with a tax-exempt church-group campaign. ---
**Author:** ![cmason32](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@cmason32](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmason32)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2004, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-attack-on-democracy/249239/14 "2004-06-08T07:36:31Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > And they should instead wait for…? > > You may have something if the Dems collectively renounced all that soft-money and help that comes from the unions and other lefty groups. But since they are up to their necks in AFL-CIO endorsements and NEA contributions and whatnot, fuck 'em. Fuck 'em with a tax-exempt church-group campaign. Just because I’m not a Bush fan doesn’t mean that I’m a partisan democrat. I believe in full transparency for both political parties. I even believe we need a truth in advertising law for politcal ads. I don’t believe that either party should bend/break the rules for partisan gain. Rather, the playing field should be even and fair. Now, that may be a daydream - but it’s what I would expect from a truly responsive government - and not this corrupted monstrosity currently in place. Unfortunately, it seems as though winning is everything for some people - and that’s how people validate their “fuck em” attitudes. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2004, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-attack-on-democracy/249239/15 "2004-06-08T07:52:57Z")
> [@cmason32](#): > > I don’t believe that either party should bend/break the rules for partisan gain. Rather, the playing field should be even and fair. . Are you saying that the Kerry camp cannot legally do what Bush is doing? ---
**Author:** ![cmason32](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@cmason32](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmason32)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2004, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-attack-on-democracy/249239/16 "2004-06-08T07:58:03Z")
> [@spooje](#): > > Are you saying that the Kerry camp cannot legally do what Bush is doing? I don’t understand this question. Is there something specific you are referring to? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2004, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-attack-on-democracy/249239/17 "2004-06-08T09:56:29Z")
I agree with Buttonjockey that it’s all just a big money game. My only question is how do you know whether a bill was quietly introduced as opposed to loudly introduced? > [@NY Times](#): > > Republicans in the House of Representatives have quietly introduced a measure… Did the House’s bill reader whisper this one? Did C-Span’s sound guy cooperate in a conspiracy? Did a Republican operative sneak up to the table while no-one was watching and slip the bill between two other bills? How does that work exactly? ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2004, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-attack-on-democracy/249239/18 "2004-06-08T10:01:31Z")
> [@cmason32](#): > > I don’t understand this question. Is there something specific you are referring to? Are you opposed to it’s being done at all, or opposed to the republicans doing it? Is there a reason why the democrats cannot do the same thing? ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2004, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-attack-on-democracy/249239/19 "2004-06-08T12:44:12Z")
I support Amnesty International. I’ve been a member since about 1987. I organized my college’s first AI chapter and ran it for three years. I worked hard and made some (I hope) good things happen. Two months ago I stepped up my membership from ‘generic letter writer’ to ‘donation giver’ if you get me. I zinged $100 off and got my little card and everything. I have receiving a letter-writing campaign since then. But let me tell you about what I have received… (Cue Motley Crue music…) Sitting in my office thinking works a drag Listening to the gov-ment rap just ain’t my bag Mailman rings…I know it’s my cue I’m gonna get request for donation number two! Giving to Amnesty! Giving to Amnesty! Now AI don’t you hit me Up for some more Cause everyone knows that Patience can be ex-hausted! Looking round the corner sure the coast is clear Checking out the mail no there ain’t nothing there Sit down to dinner with Kate and them all Phone starts a-ringing it’s a donation call! Giving to Amnesty! Giving to Amnesty! Now AI don’t you hit me Up for some more Cause everyone knows that Patience can be ex-hausted! Oh, I got to work at the media shop Direct mailing and man I’m bored Log on to email just to see what’s yes or no In my inbox it sits there another hit up for some dough Seriously, in the two months since I gave I’ve been hit up more than 20 times for another donation and haven’t received on action letter. Yes, I know it’s originally a Brownsville Station song but I’m a child of the 80s and like the Crue version better. How the hell do I do umlauts, anyway? ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2004, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-attack-on-democracy/249239/20 "2004-06-08T12:46:01Z")
Dammit. Hit the wrong button. Laugh at me, please. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-attack-on-democracy/249239.md?page=2)