# Another Attack on Democracy **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 8, 2004, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-attack-on-democracy/249239 "2004-06-08T04:59:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2004, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-attack-on-democracy/249239/21 "2004-06-08T15:04:50Z")
šŸ˜›šŸ˜›šŸ˜›šŸ˜›šŸ˜›šŸ˜›šŸ˜›šŸ˜›šŸ˜›šŸ˜› :wally ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2004, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-attack-on-democracy/249239/22 "2004-06-08T15:06:14Z")
There, ya happy? ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2004, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-attack-on-democracy/249239/23 "2004-06-08T15:10:24Z")
Shouldnā€™t the point be more about the separation of State and Churches ? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2004, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-attack-on-democracy/249239/24 "2004-06-08T16:00:24Z")
**Brutus** , your attempt to make labor unions equivalent to churches is specious, at best. A labor union _is_ a political organization, it is based on the power relationship between ownership and labor. Do you imagine that such benefits as the 8-hour day, work safety rules, and pension plans fell like manna from the generous hands of the owners? Or were they bitterly contested in the _political_ arena? Even the most casual and shallow awareness of American history will prove my point. That said, I donā€™t think this is a fight worth having. Yes, there are any number of churches whose membership is largely Republican. The Rev. Moon, for instance, is a stalwart supporter, Iā€™m not sure how the Scientologists break out, but given the Administrations rather generous dealings with them of late, I suspect they will carefully examine thier bread to determine which side is buttered. But most Americans already seperate Church and State in their own minds. The Bushiviks push to organize political action in fundamentalist Pentacostal churches is no more obnoxious than community action organized in a largely black Baptist church. They are preaching to the choir, it is an attempt to motivate persons already aligned to the Republican agenda. As such, it isnā€™t likely to be particularly effective. I think we should regard the question as moot. The seperation of church and state is always a sticky question, but I hold that the Constitution is mostly ā€œone wayā€ on the issue: the State may not impose itself on the Church. But a church, being composed of citizens, has every right to impose its views on the state, if it can do so by way of ballots cast by citizens. I personally think an America that aligned itself to fit a Quaker/Unitarian coalition would be vastly improved. I have cousins who are snake-handling Pentecostals, and thier political agenda scares the bejabbers out of me. But they are no worse than the Moonies, and if you donā€™t think the Moonies have political clout, you arenā€™t paying attention. Let a hundred flowers bloom, let a thousand schools of thought contend. That was Reagan, right? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2004, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-attack-on-democracy/249239/25 "2004-06-08T16:14:10Z")
> [@cmason32](#): > > I donā€™t believe that either party should bend/break the rules for partisan gain. I missed the part where anyone was bending or breaking any rules at all. Seems to me that the Republicans are simply trying to change the law drawing the line as to when and where a churchā€™s political activities would revoke that churchā€™s tax-exempt status. They arenā€™t saying the existing rules should be ignored or bent; theyā€™re saying they should be changed via the ordinary political process. Now, obviously, there are plenty of reasons as to why this may not be a good idea from a policy perspective. Thatā€™s a legitimate area for debate. But it certainly isnā€™t an underhanded or sneaky idea. And doubtless the Republicans believe that such a move will confer upon them an electoral advantage. So what? Doubtlessly many representatives supported McCain-Feingoldā€™s restrictions because it would confer an advantage upon incumbent candidates. Welcome to politics. > [@](#): > > Rather, the playing field should be even and fair. As has been noted, in the unlikely event this becomes law, there is nothing to prevent candidate Kerry from also seeking the endorsement of churches. Even if it passes, the playing field remains even and fair. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2004, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-attack-on-democracy/249239/26 "2004-06-08T16:14:25Z")
> [@spooje](#): > > Can someone tell me why it would be wrong for a tax-exempt organization to advocate a particular candidate? There are two basic reasons. First, the groups are tax exempt because they are, in theory, working for the public good in religion, education, or charity. Allowing them to support specific candidates would be, as **early out** pointed out, giving them a financial benefit in their support of a candidate. The organization remains free to choose, they can either support individual candidates, or they can be tax-exempt. They just canā€™t be both. Second, the rule helps keep the election process on the up and up. It does not allow for the founding of the Kerry Church of Big Foreheads, which would be tax exempt, yet only be founded for supporting a particular candidate. It helps limit the sneaky ways of violating campaign finance laws. As to the OP, I agree, but I am also completely unsurprised. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2004, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-attack-on-democracy/249239/27 "2004-06-09T05:41:40Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > **Brutus** , your attempt to make labor unions equivalent to churches is specious, at best. A labor union _is_ a political organization, it is based on the power relationship between ownership and labor. Do you imagine that such benefits as the 8-hour day, work safety rules, and pension plans fell like manna from the generous hands of the owners? Or were they bitterly contested in the _political_ arena? Even the most casual and shallow awareness of American history will prove my point. OK, you got me. I agree, that once upon a time, labor unions were useful. Other than that, I canā€™t really tell if you are agreeing with me or not. Dems are standing at a precipice. If they cannot put a candidate forward _now_, of all times, that is clearly defeating Bush, they have a bleak future. I can certainly understand why they are pooping their pants at the prospect of the Republicans picking up their own union-like political groups. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2004, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-attack-on-democracy/249239/28 "2004-06-09T05:55:43Z")
Yeah, theyā€™re clearly in panic mode, what with Kerryā€™s lead in the polls and GeeDubya shooting himself in the foot every other week. Why, look over there, thereā€™s a Democrat sobbing in despair! Oh, wait, heā€™s chortling in glee. Well, heā€™s really gonna change his tune just as soon as **Brutus** tells him that heā€™s screwed. ---
**Author:** ![thirdwarning](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecccb3/32.png) [@thirdwarning](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thirdwarning)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2004, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-attack-on-democracy/249239/29 "2004-06-09T06:07:00Z")
Election year or not, I donā€™t believe this is the first time this has come up. I think attempts have been made before to change this rule. Of course, Iā€™ve lived my whole life in the shadow of Chicago, so Iā€™m used to ministers and churches campaigning for politicians. Just not the Republicans. ---
**Author:** ![thirdwarning](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecccb3/32.png) [@thirdwarning](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thirdwarning)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2004, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-attack-on-democracy/249239/30 "2004-06-09T06:08:34Z")
I mean, not to say they should or they shouldnā€™t. Just donā€™t get the idea that this is limited to one party. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2004, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-attack-on-democracy/249239/31 "2004-06-09T11:49:23Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > I agree with Buttonjockey that itā€™s all just a big money game. My only question is how do you know whether a bill was quietly introduced as opposed to loudly introduced? > Did the Houseā€™s bill reader whisper this one? Did C-Spanā€™s sound guy cooperate in a conspiracy? Did a Republican operative sneak up to the table while no-one was watching and slip the bill between two other bills? How does that work exactly? Within the context of Capitol Hill, ā€œquietlyā€ would undoubtedly mean ā€œwith no attempt to interest the media.ā€ Compare and contrast when Congressmen introduce something along the lines of ā€œThe Goodness for America Actā€ or the ā€œTax Relief for Everybody And Their Little Dogs, Too, Act!ā€ Speeches, press conferences, press releases, interviews or radio and TV. Now thatā€™s being loud, Capitol Hill wise. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2004, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-attack-on-democracy/249239/32 "2004-06-09T12:34:35Z")
> [@](#): > > Yeah, theyā€™re clearly in panic mode, what with Kerryā€™s lead in the polls and GeeDubya shooting himself in the foot every other week. Why, look over there, thereā€™s a Democrat sobbing in despair! Oh, wait, heā€™s chortling in glee. > > Well, heā€™s really gonna change his tune just as soon as Brutus tells him that heā€™s screwed. Well, considering that despite a bad news cycle (media overplaying Abu Ghraib while downplaying the ever-improving economy) Bush is still only a few points behind, and Kerryā€™s still not percieved as eminently likable by even his base, Iā€™d say theyā€™re still biting their nailsā€¦ ---
**Author:** ![Eleusis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Eleusis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eleusis)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2004, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-attack-on-democracy/249239/33 "2004-06-09T13:13:10Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > I agree with Buttonjockey that itā€™s all just a big money game. My only question is how do you know whether a bill was quietly introduced as opposed to loudly introduced? > Did the Houseā€™s bill reader whisper this one? Did C-Spanā€™s sound guy cooperate in a conspiracy? Did a Republican operative sneak up to the table while no-one was watching and slip the bill between two other bills? How does that work exactly? Cool, Lib. I hoist a pint in your general direction. ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2004, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-attack-on-democracy/249239/34 "2004-06-09T13:54:12Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > ā€¦media overplaying Abu Ghraibā€¦ Given whatā€™s now being revealed about this adminstrationā€™s explorations of ā€œhow much torture can we get away with under the guise of some weasel-worded interpretations of the law,ā€ I donā€™t think it would be possible for the media to overplay Abu Ghraib. The media properly paying attention to Abu Ghraib is what has led to John Ashcroft in front of a Senate committee, hemming, hawing, and showing himself to be wholly inadequate to the position he occupies. We need more of this. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2004, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-attack-on-democracy/249239/35 "2004-06-09T15:33:28Z")
**Brutus** , you think Bush is so easy to defeat the Dems should have a slam-dunk? Iā€™m not seeing it. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2004, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-attack-on-democracy/249239/36 "2004-06-09T19:54:27Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > Well, considering that despite a bad news cycle (media overplaying Abu Ghraib while downplaying the ever-improving economy) Bush is still only a few points behind, and _Kerryā€™s still not percieved as eminently likable by even his base,_ Iā€™d say theyā€™re still biting their nailsā€¦ Errrā€¦ cite? Outside of wishful thinking by Fox News and the usual right-wing pundits, I havenā€™t heard **anybody** say boo about Kerry not appealing to his base constituency. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2004, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-attack-on-democracy/249239/37 "2004-06-09T20:45:44Z")
Give Phil Hendrie a listen sometime, Rjung. ---
**Author:** ![furlibusea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@furlibusea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furlibusea)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2004, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-attack-on-democracy/249239/38 "2004-06-09T21:15:43Z")
Is that **Brutus** suggesting that perhaps there might be something Bush should be worried about? I think i better check my cold medication, either that or Rod Sterling is going to walk in my livingroom. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2004, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-attack-on-democracy/249239/39 "2004-06-09T21:41:34Z")
> [@Jonathan Chance](#): > > I support Amnesty International. ā€¦ in the two months since I gave Iā€™ve been hit up more than 20 times for another donation and havenā€™t received on action letter. Same thing happened with respect to my wifeā€™s ACLU membership, with the additional fun that they sold her name to everybody offering cash, such that the solicitations came from more than just the ACLU. This was a primary factor in her decision not to renew. Itā€™s tough when you really want to publicly support an organization because you wholeheartedly believe in its goals, but you donā€™t want your name anywhere near their actual mailing list. ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-attack-on-democracy/249239/40 "2004-06-10T03:56:30Z")
Well, the Southern Baptist Convention just came out hard against this bill, because theyā€™re afraid of the IRS strictly enforcing the ā€œlimited number of violationsā€ provision. So maybe itā€™ll die quietly. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-attack-on-democracy/249239.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-attack-on-democracy/249239.md?page=3)