# Another botched execution **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 24, 2014, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-botched-execution/693930 "2014-07-24T13:14:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-botched-execution/693930/41 "2014-07-24T15:44:49Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > It’s stupid to allow people to live who do not possess the right to draw breath. I’m not following you here. Where do you get the idea that a person who commits a terrible and violent crime “doe snot possess the right to draw breath?” ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-botched-execution/693930/42 "2014-07-24T15:50:07Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > …so your beef is that we aren’t executing _enough_ people? That’s the argument by[this Judge](http://www.cacd.uscourts.gov/sites/default/files/documents/Jones%20v.%20Chappell.pdf) in a recent case. Very compelling opinion. Here’s the conclusion: > [@](#): > > When an individual is condemned to death in California, the sentence carries with it an implicit promise from the State that it will actually be carried out. That promise is made to the citizens of the State, who are investing significant resources in furtherance of a punishment that they believe is necessary to achieving justice. It is made to jurors who, in exercise of their civic responsibility, are asked to hear about and see evidence of undeniably horrific crimes, and then participate in the agonizing deliberations over whether the perpetrators of those horrific crimes should be put to death. It is made to victims and their loved ones, for whom just punishment might provide some semblance of moral and emotional closure from an otherwise unimaginable loss. And it is made to the hundreds of individuals on Death Row, as a statement their crimes are so heinous they have forfeited their right to life. > > But for too long now, the promise has been an empty one. Inordinate and unpredictable delay has resulted in a death penalty system in which very few of the hundreds of individuals sentenced to death have been, or even will be, executed by the State. It has resulted in a system in which arbitrary factors, rather than legitimate ones like the nature of the crime or the date of the death sentence, determine whether an individual will actually be executed. And it has resulted in a system that serves no penological purpose. Such a system is unconstitutional. Accordingly, the Court hereby VACATES Mr. Jones’s death sentence. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-botched-execution/693930/43 "2014-07-24T15:52:49Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > \*\* My beef is that execution iscompletely arbitrary.\*\* What’s the point of punishment \*\*if it’s only applied rarely? \*\* So you would not mind if executions were carried out frequently and consistently? ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-botched-execution/693930/44 "2014-07-24T16:09:11Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > So you would not mind if executions were carried out frequently and consistently? I want executions to be abolished. What we have now is the worst possible scenario: an over the top, expensive, flawed penalty that isn’t even applied consistently. All this does is illustrate just how stupid the death penalty is in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-botched-execution/693930/45 "2014-07-24T16:18:31Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > I want executions to be abolished. What we have now is the worst possible scenario: an over the top, expensive, flawed penalty that isn’t even applied consistently. All this does is illustrate just how stupid the death penalty is in the first place. So your claim that your beef was that “execution is completely arbitrary” was false. That’s not really your beef at all. Thank you for clearing that up, and I hope you will make it clear which other of your posts are also untrue. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-botched-execution/693930/46 "2014-07-24T16:25:06Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > I want executions to be abolished. What we have now is the worst possible scenario: an over the top, expensive, flawed penalty that isn’t even applied consistently. All this does is illustrate just how stupid the death penalty is in the first place. That’s not what was said. > [@LavenderBlue](#): > > \*\*My beef is that execution is completely arbitrary. What’s the point of punishment if it’s only applied rarely? \*\* Someone who thinks capital punishment is wrong would not complain about it only being “applied rarely.” Imagine if someone opposed waterboarding by saying, "My beef with waterboarding is that it is completely arbitrary. What’s the point of waterboarding if it’s only applied rarely? ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-botched-execution/693930/47 "2014-07-24T16:25:21Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > So your claim that your beef was that “execution is completely arbitrary” was false. That’s not really your beef at all. > > Thank you for clearing that up, and I hope you will make it clear which other of your posts are also untrue. > > Regards, > Shodan But it is arbitrary. That is not in dispute. It’s just one of the many reasons why the DP is stupid. Please point out to me which of my posts in this thread are untrue. The DP is rarely applied. It is expensive. We have executed innocent people in the past and will probably continue to do so in the future. I would like it abolished as it is nothing more than political grandstanding by pandering pols to uninformed voters. Please explain to me why you think the state of PA should keep people on death row at taxpayer expense. Please explain to me why it was okay for Texans to execute Todd Willingham after his children died in a fire. Please explain to me why the same goals cannot be accomplished with life imprisonment. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-botched-execution/693930/48 "2014-07-24T16:29:19Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > Please explain to me why you think the state of PA should keep people on death row at taxpayer expense. Should condemned people be housed somewhere other than death row? General population? Should death row be funded by some means other than taxpayer expense? I’m confused. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-botched-execution/693930/49 "2014-07-24T16:31:15Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > That’s not what was said. > > Someone who thinks capital punishment is wrong would not complain about it only being “applied rarely.” > Imagine if someone opposed waterboarding by saying, "My beef with waterboarding is that it is completely arbitrary. What’s the point of waterboarding if it’s only applied rarely? Again, that is just one of many problems with it. How can it serve as a deterrent when it is so rarely applied? And, given that when it is applied, it is often both incredibly expensive and occasionally utterly wrongly – so wrongly applied we are literally executing innocent people – why the fuck are we doing it in the first place? Show me some evidence that the DP works. Show me we don’t execute innocent people. Show me that it stop crime. Because it’s pretty clear that it does none of those things. And it sucks up taxes from people like me in the process. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-botched-execution/693930/50 "2014-07-24T16:32:55Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Should condemned people be housed somewhere other than death row? General population? > Should death row be funded by some means other than taxpayer expense? > I’m confused. How about we have no death row in the first place? How about that? How about we don’t get forced to spend money on special trials for something that doesn’t even work? ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-botched-execution/693930/51 "2014-07-24T16:32:59Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > That’s not what was said. > > Someone who thinks capital punishment is wrong would not complain about it only being “applied rarely.” > > Imagine if someone opposed waterboarding by saying, "My beef with waterboarding is that it is completely arbitrary. What’s the point of waterboarding if it’s only applied rarely? Read the decision in the case I cited upthread. If you put 100 prisoners on death row, and arbitrarily execute 4 of them, that is a flawed system. If we’re not willing or able to execute most people sentenced to death (and affirmed on appeal) then either we should 1) fix the system so we can, or 2) stop pretending and end the death penalty. I’m against the death penalty, but would view either option as an improvment over the current situation. Yes, more people would be executed under option 1, but it would be a less flawed system. It’s not just the death penalty in concept that I object to, but I have additional objections to the way it plays out in practice. In fact, the reality of the US death penalty i_s the primary reason_ I’m anti-DP. It’s not that I’m shedding tears for these SOBs who are being killed. I don’t like my government so badly operating such a nasty business. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-botched-execution/693930/52 "2014-07-24T16:38:06Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Do you consider Japan, China, Israel, and India to be “uncivilized”? India rarely executes, and Israel hasn’t done it since Eichmann was executed in 1962. Extrajudicial killings are common, of course. I consider all these countries somewhat less civilized than many others, and capital punishment has something to do with it in all cases (oppression, enforcement of laws, treatment of women and minorities, etc. are also all factors). The US really is a bit of an outlier when it comes to the number of executions it performs compared to how it otherwise behaves towards those living in the country. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-botched-execution/693930/53 "2014-07-24T16:38:50Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > That’s not what was said. > > Someone who thinks capital punishment is wrong would not complain about it only being “applied rarely.” > Imagine if someone opposed waterboarding by saying, "My beef with waterboarding is that it is completely arbitrary. What’s the point of waterboarding if it’s only applied rarely? If we should waterboard, then we should waterboard a lot more than we do. But we shouldn’t waterboard a lot more than we do. Therefore, we shouldn’t waterboard. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-botched-execution/693930/54 "2014-07-24T16:41:25Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > Show me some evidence that the DP works. As far as I know of, every single person who has been executed, died. > [@LavenderBlue](#): > > Show me that it stops crime. Because it’s pretty clear that it does none of those things. Do life imprisonment, shorter imprisonment, fines, or community service stop crime? If not, how about we abolish those, too? ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-botched-execution/693930/55 "2014-07-24T16:43:43Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Do life imprisonment, shorter imprisonment, fines, or community service stop crime? If not, how about we abolish those, too? We certainly should re-evaluate our knee jerk conclusion we seem to have adopted over the past 50 years or so that long periods of custody is the default answer to prevent behavior we don’t like. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-botched-execution/693930/56 "2014-07-24T16:54:59Z")
I would actually like to see a revamping of the entire justice system in multiple ways. Decriminalizing marijuana would certainly help. My 77 year old father uses marijuana because he finds it helps with his bad back and lingering cancer pains. Do we really want a society where police might jail an elderly grandfather and retired mailman, a war vet with no criminal record, a widower who spent over fifty years in the workforce and now spends his days mostly watching baseball and walking his dog – just because he smokes a joint sometimes? I would like to see far more efforts placed on rehabilitation and help rather than a harsh and expensive throw away the key policy. Unfortunately, I think a large segment of the American public is simply incapable of thinking rationally about this subject. ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-botched-execution/693930/57 "2014-07-24T16:55:38Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > We certainly should re-evaluate our knee jerk conclusion we seem to have adopted over the past 50 years or so that long periods of custody is the default answer to prevent behavior we don’t like. And by default, you really mean mandatory, right? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-botched-execution/693930/58 "2014-07-24T16:56:45Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > I would actually like to see a revamping of the entire justice system in multiple ways. Decriminalizing marijuana would certainly help. My 77 year old father uses marijuana because he finds it helps with his bad back and lingering cancer pains. Do we really want a society where police might jail an elderly grandfather and retired mailman, a war vet with no criminal record, a widower who spent over fifty years in the workforce and now spends his days mostly watching baseball and walking his dog – just because he smokes a joint sometimes? > > I would like to see far more efforts placed on rehabilitation and help rather than a harsh and expensive throw away the key policy. Unfortunately, I think a large segment of the American public is simply incapable of thinking rationally about this subject. I agree, actually. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-botched-execution/693930/59 "2014-07-24T16:58:30Z")
The anti-DP crowd would do better to indicate this failure of the execution and move on quickly, lest people start googling what the guy did to deserve it. Like the victim’s family stated, I don’t think most people are going to have much sympathy for the executed and so its not going to be a winning issue even if those of us in the anti-DP crowd are right. Better to highlight the secrecy surrounding the drug providers, the innocent people exonerated from death row, or the inherent unfairness of the prison system than to try to uplift the death of a very bad guy as a martyr to rally behind ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-botched-execution/693930/60 "2014-07-24T17:00:43Z")
> [@JSexton](#): > > And by default, you really mean mandatory, right? Yes, but not exclusively. Longer sentences, even when not mandatory, seem to be the first option most people think of (voters, judges, and legislators) to address a problem, real or perceived. The Federal Sentencing Guidelines, for example, were “mandatory” for awhile, but court decisions have made them more “guidelines,” but they are still the starting point for a sentencing decision, and they are still, in many (but not all) cases significantly longer than I would think necessary. But, no one made me in charge. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-botched-execution/693930.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-botched-execution/693930.md?page=4)