# Another botched execution **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 24, 2014, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-botched-execution/693930 "2014-07-24T13:14:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/4af34b/32.png) [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeke_N.Destroi)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-botched-execution/693930/61 "2014-07-24T17:21:15Z")
I am 99% opposed to the death penalty for all of the reasons given above. That being said, if it is to be carried out then a decision needs to be made: 1)The purpose is to put down a rabid dog that poses a real and persistent threat to society at large. 2)The purpose is retribution/revenge and a demonstration of the state’s power. If it is #1 then re-introduce the gas chamber and fill it with nitrogen. Keep (make?) it cheap, humane, quick and efficient. If it is #2 then make it public, painful, messy and cheap. I believe that until a conclusion is reached as to what the purpose of capitol punishment truly is then no meaningful or lasting progress will be made on the issue itself. Zeke ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-botched-execution/693930/62 "2014-07-24T17:32:33Z")
> [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](#): > > I am 99% opposed to the death penalty for all of the reasons given above. > > That being said, if it is to be carried out then a decision needs to be made: > 1)The purpose is to put down a rabid dog that poses a real and persistent threat to society at large. > 2)The purpose is retribution/revenge and a demonstration of the state’s power. > > If it is #1 then re-introduce the gas chamber and fill it with nitrogen. Keep (make?) it cheap, humane, quick and efficient. > > If it is #2 then make it public, painful, messy and cheap. > > I believe that until a conclusion is reached as to what the purpose of capitol punishment truly is then no meaningful or lasting progress will be made on the issue itself. > > Zeke Agreed. ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Why\_Bother](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e19adc/32.png) [@Doctor\_Why\_Bother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Why_Bother)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-botched-execution/693930/63 "2014-07-24T17:42:30Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Better to highlight the secrecy surrounding the drug providers, the innocent people exonerated from death row, or the inherent unfairness of the prison system than to try to uplift the death of a very bad guy as a martyr to rally behind In fairness, I don’t see anyone in this thread holding up this guy as any kind of martyr. Everything I’ve read about him strongly indicates that he was an evil piece of shit. But I don’t care about him. I care about the next person in that chamber whose conviction may very well be less secure. Speaking only for myself, this whole issue ultimately boils down to the incontrovertible universal truth that what _can_ go wrong _will_ go wrong. It doesn’t matter how sophisticated our forensic techniques become, or how many appeals we give the convicted, sooner or later we _will_ execute an innocent person by mistake. It’s not a risk, it’s a _mathematical certainty._ Frankly, if you’re okay with that, if you’re willing to blithely turn a blind eye to the cold and clinical execution of a completely innocent human being purely in pursuit of your personal utilitarian idea of a greater good, then there really isn’t a huge difference between you and the people you want to see dead. ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Why\_Bother](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e19adc/32.png) [@Doctor\_Why\_Bother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Why_Bother)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-botched-execution/693930/64 "2014-07-24T17:52:38Z")
Just to clarify, I’m using ‘You’ in a general sense. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-botched-execution/693930/65 "2014-07-24T17:57:30Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Pretty much. Nor is there much evidence that he suffered - gasping while you die (unconscious) is not evidence that your death was botched. As I’ve said before, it is sick in a peculiar and twisted way to maintain that executions must be absolutely pain- fear- and stress-free. I’ve never heard of a case where a murder was so perfectly executed as to cause the victim no pain, fear, or suffering. Even a nurse giving you a life-saving vaccination knows enough to say, “You’re going to feel a little pinch here.” Go out of our way to torture murderers? No way. Bend over in a 720° rotation trying to keep them from even being a little depressed about their last walk? Fuck that. “This is going to hurt. Sorry, really. It won’t hurt long.” ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-botched-execution/693930/66 "2014-07-24T18:10:18Z")
> [@Doctor\_Why\_Bother](#): > > In fairness, I don’t see anyone in this thread holding up this guy as any kind of martyr. Everything I’ve read about him strongly indicates that he was an evil piece of shit. But I don’t care about him. I care about the next person in that chamber whose conviction may very well be less secure. Well I should clarify that I don’t mean people will be worshipping him like a martyr, but that his death can never be separated from his actions while alive, so focusing on how he died will always lead one to wonder what he did to deserve it, and its at that point that sympathy for a more humane method drops. ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Why\_Bother](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e19adc/32.png) [@Doctor\_Why\_Bother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Why_Bother)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-botched-execution/693930/67 "2014-07-24T18:12:19Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Well I should clarify that I don’t mean people will be worshipping him like a martyr, but that his death can never be separated from his actions while alive, so focusing on how he died will always lead one to wonder what he did to deserve it, and its at that point that sympathy for a more humane method drops. Yeah, when you put it like that it’s a very good point. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-botched-execution/693930/68 "2014-07-24T18:56:27Z")
I support better execution of executions 100%. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-botched-execution/693930/69 "2014-07-24T19:04:39Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > As I’ve said before, it is sick in a peculiar and twisted way to maintain that executions must be absolutely pain- fear- and stress-free. I’ve never heard of a case where a murder was so perfectly executed as to cause the victim no pain, fear, or suffering. > > Even a nurse giving you a life-saving vaccination knows enough to say, “You’re going to feel a little pinch here.” > > Go out of our way to torture murderers? No way. Bend over in a 720° rotation trying to keep them from even being a little depressed about their last walk? Fuck that. > > “This is going to hurt. Sorry, really. It won’t hurt long.” It’s worth noting that the sentence is death, not painful death. The Shylock defence could be considered to apply. Maybe. I don’t know of anyone saying executions should be fear- or stress-free. If they did, I wouldn’t say it came close to the sick-and-twisted behaviour that it is calling for the death of anyone. I’m 100% with Gandalf on this. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-botched-execution/693930/70 "2014-07-24T19:07:07Z")
When you suggest a virtually painless method of death, though, (such as nitrogen inhalation), many DP opponents still claim it’s barbaric anyway. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-botched-execution/693930/71 "2014-07-24T19:12:07Z")
Thing is, though, DP opponents say the barbarity is mainly to _ourselves_. That intentionally killing someone makes us no better than they are. That argument, combined with the capricious and highly unreliable nature of the process, as the Illinois study a few years back showed, is what changed my mind. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-botched-execution/693930/72 "2014-07-24T19:19:46Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > That intentionally killing someone makes us no better than they are. By that same logic, when a kidnapper abducts someone and holds them captive for years - and the state responds by locking up the kidnapper in prison for years - how does that make the state any better than the kidnapper? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-botched-execution/693930/73 "2014-07-24T19:24:09Z")
There is a \*range \*of reasons we use imprisonment; can you think of some? Besides simple punishment and rehabilitation, they include protecting ourselves from people who have demonstrated a proclivity to do what they have done. Now which of those, or others you can name, aligns with the motives for kidnapping? ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-botched-execution/693930/74 "2014-07-24T19:42:29Z")
There is a lot of overlap between the motivations for imprisonment and execution. If your needs can be served by imprisonment, you have to look at what your other motivations for execution are. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-botched-execution/693930/75 "2014-07-24T20:17:34Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > [Here are just a few.](http://listverse.com/2010/01/12/10-convicts-presumed-innocent-after-execution/) Some of those are _very_ weak. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-botched-execution/693930/76 "2014-07-24T21:35:34Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Money spent on the pursuance of justice is never wasted. If your argument is that we’re giving life sentences to people who _should_ be getting the death penalty, then I agree. > _Happened_, past tense, as in “occurred once, but no longer”. All these convictions predate the widespread adoption of DNA evidence in trials. Oh come on. DNA is not involved in many crimes. There are even cases of innocents being convicted after confessions that turn out to be false. (Central Park jogger case) I don’t like being part of a society that executes people. I’m sure most of those executed deserved what they got (and worse), but I don’t deserve to be part of that. It’s me I’m concerned with, not the guilty. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-botched-execution/693930/77 "2014-07-24T22:14:21Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > India rarely executes, and Israel hasn’t done it since Eichmann was executed in 1962. Extrajudicial killings are common, of course. I consider all these countries somewhat less civilized than many others, and capital punishment has something to do with it in all cases (oppression, enforcement of laws, treatment of women and minorities, etc. are also all factors). > > The US really is a bit of an outlier when it comes to the number of executions it performs compared to how it otherwise behaves towards those living in the country. So did Eichmann deserve to live? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-botched-execution/693930/78 "2014-07-24T22:20:41Z")
> [@BigAppleBucky](#): > > Oh come on. DNA is not involved in many crimes. > > There are even cases of innocents being convicted after confessions that turn out to be false. (Central Park jogger case) > > I don’t like being part of a society that executes people. I’m sure most of those executed deserved what they got (and worse), but I don’t deserve to be part of that. It’s me I’m concerned with, not the guilty. I don’t deserve to be part of a society that’s too squeamish to give people what it admits they deserve. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-botched-execution/693930/79 "2014-07-24T22:21:53Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > How about we have no death row in the first place? How about that? How about we don’t get forced to spend money on special trials for something that doesn’t even work? How does it not work? They end up dead, don’t they? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-botched-execution/693930/80 "2014-07-24T23:08:13Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > I frankly don’t understand why we bother with all the expensive chemicals. One .38 round at the base of the skull where the spine comes in will turn them off like a lightswitch. The round costs what…$0.50 or so? Helluva lot cheaper. Cheap isn’t the point. We don’t just shoot people because that looks too much like killing; we want our killing to look all neat and clean and clinical. > [@Smapti](#): > > Then let’s apply the death penalty less arbitrarily and execute more of the people who deserve to die. Problem solved. Never happen. The death penalty is, always has been and always will be implemented in a corrupt, incompetent and bigoted fashion. That’s what it’s for. It’s about legal/political theater, not justice, retribution or protecting the public. > [@Smapti](#): > > It’s stupid to allow people to live who do not possess the right to draw breath. > > Expense is not an issue when it comes to justice. > > It is not moral to waste resources on perpetuating life unworthy of life. > > It is not civilized to treat murderers better than they treated their victims. None of which has anything to do with the death penalty. We put people on death row because they are targets who can be easily railroaded, not because they are guilty of especially awful crimes or guilty of anything at all. It has nothing to do with justice either. Putting people on death row isn’t even about executing them; it’s about prosecutors and politicians looking “tough on crime”. They don’t care if the target is ever executed any more than they care if the target is actually guilty or not. > [@Smapti](#): > > In what way is our society worsened by the death penalty? It kills innocent people, enables bigotry and apparently encourages crime especially murder. > [@Velocity](#): > > As far as I know of, every single person who has been executed, died. And? > [@Velocity](#): > > Do life imprisonment, shorter imprisonment, fines, or community service stop crime? To a degree, yes. The death penalty on the other hand has always tended to _increase_ crime if it has any effect at all. States that execute people have higher murder rates. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-botched-execution/693930.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-botched-execution/693930.md?page=5)