# Another botched execution **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 24, 2014, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-botched-execution/693930 "2014-07-24T13:14:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-botched-execution/693930/101 "2014-07-25T15:59:44Z")
Many people would have said that Todd Willingham did not deserve to live. The state of Texas said he killed his three kids by deliberately setting a fire to his home. Yet if you read the New Yorker article I pulled up and the PBS Frontline video I posted here, there is ample evidence to believe that Willingham’s children were killed by accident in a house fire started by faulty wiring. So the state of Texas probably spent about two million to murder a man who was obviously completely innocent of any crime. That moral wrong can never be undone. Never. What the fuck is wrong with life imprisonment? Why do we need something that doesn’t reduce crime, is enormously expensive and creates the literal possibility of executing innocent people? ---
**Author:** ![Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/4af34b/32.png) [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeke_N.Destroi)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-botched-execution/693930/102 "2014-07-25T17:27:23Z")
According to [this article from the CBC](http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/joseph-rudolph-wood-execution-at-least-2-full-doses-of-lethal-cocktail-administered-1.2717632) he gasped “660 times” according to one witness; but the officials said they were assured that he was “brain dead” and that the gasping was involuntary and he suffered no pain. According to [Google](https://www.google.ca/?gws_rd=ssl#q=conscious+during+surgery) sometimes, with a full team present to ensure safety and lack of suffering, people are fully conscious during surgery with no one being aware except the patient. So, how sure can you be that you are not - in some instances - subjecting people to excruciating torture while officials, witnesses and, by proxy, the American people blithely assure themselves that the person is unaware? The article says it took twice the [lethal](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2y8Sx4B2Sk) dose to kill him. This suggests, to me at least, that he may well have been fully conscious and aware during a decent chunk of the procedure. Again, if the purpose is to “rid the streets” and “protect society”, then there are any number of ways to kill a person quickly and painlessly to achieve that aim - nitrogen, H2S, .45 to the base of the skull for instance. If the purpose is to exact revenge then do so publicly and explicitly. Make it clearly painful and messy. It has never worked as a deterrent before and won’t do so now but at least it would remove the hypocrisy inherent in the system as is. It would also save time and money by ending the endless court proceedings about whether method A or B constitutes “cruel and unusual punishment.” As an aside - most death penalty countries don’t use lethal injection, electric chairs or gas chambers for executions. Does that not make it, by definition, unusual? The courts have repeatedly said all of the above are, potentially at least, cruel. What am I missing? Zeke ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-botched-execution/693930/103 "2014-07-25T18:10:12Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > What the fuck is wrong with life imprisonment? Life imprisonment causes suffering. Not the same as capital punishment, but it undeniably causes suffering. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-botched-execution/693930/104 "2014-07-25T18:24:13Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Life imprisonment causes suffering. Not the same as capital punishment, but it undeniably causes suffering. I recall a Doper who held very firmly that life imprisonment was morally comparable to execution, if not actively worse… …but it was ages ago, and I’m fucked if I can remember who it was. Anyone else remember this? ---
**Author:** ![Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/4af34b/32.png) [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeke_N.Destroi)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-botched-execution/693930/105 "2014-07-25T18:37:32Z")
George Bernard Shaw made that argument quite eloquently in the preface to one of his plays - which one I can’t recall. Though I doubt he ever posted here. ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-botched-execution/693930/106 "2014-07-25T18:48:53Z")
Yeah I sometimes wonder if life imprisonment is worse than the death penalty. I’ve often heard those opposed to the death penalty say “death is too good for this person. I want them to rot in jail for decades,” or something along those lines. On a personal level, I’d rather experience life imprisonment rather than the death penalty if I got the choice. I figure a lot of others feel the same way. ---
**Author:** ![common\_good](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f475e1/32.png) [@common\_good](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/common_good)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-botched-execution/693930/107 "2014-07-25T19:08:32Z")
America imprisons and executes more of it’s citizenry, per capita, than any other nation on earth. I have nothing to add to that fact; it needs nothing more. If there is any irony in this, it should be apparent to most. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-botched-execution/693930/108 "2014-07-25T21:14:12Z")
The US certainly doesn’t come close to carrying out the most executions per capita. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-botched-execution/693930/109 "2014-07-25T21:25:24Z")
What **Bozuit** said. And while I agree that the US has the highest incarceration rate in the world, and despise it, I confess to being pretty slow on the uptake sometimes…please explain the irony? . ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-botched-execution/693930/110 "2014-07-25T21:50:38Z")
> [@andros](#): > > What **Bozuit** said. And while I agree that the US has the highest incarceration rate in the world, and despise it, I confess to being pretty slow on the uptake sometimes…please explain the irony? > . “The Land of the Free”? Whoever told you that is your enemy! ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-botched-execution/693930/111 "2014-07-25T21:54:35Z")
Thanks, Zack. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-botched-execution/693930/112 "2014-07-25T22:26:09Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > The US certainly doesn’t come close to carrying out the most executions per capita. Agreed. MUCH, much lower in honor killings, for sure! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-botched-execution/693930/113 "2014-07-25T23:06:12Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > Many people would have said that Todd Willingham did not deserve to live. The state of Texas said he killed his three kids by deliberately setting a fire to his home. Yet if you read the New Yorker article I pulled up and the PBS Frontline video I posted here, there is ample evidence to believe that Willingham’s children were killed by accident in a house fire started by faulty wiring. > > So the state of Texas probably spent about two million to murder a man who was obviously completely innocent of any crime. That moral wrong can never be undone. Never. > > What the fuck is wrong with life imprisonment? Why do we need something that doesn’t reduce crime, is enormously expensive and creates the literal possibility of executing innocent people? Big questions about whether it was arson or not /= “obviously completely innocent of any crime.” I would not have voted to convict, were I on that jury, and knowing what I now know about the case, especially the clown college fire science and (IMHO) unwarranted diagnosis of sociopathy during the penalty phase. Willingham was a piece of shit thief and wifebeater, not a sociopath. Further, the proseutor needs to be disbarred, if it’s true that there was a deal with the jailhouse snitch to lower his sentence, and that deal was never mentioned to the defense. But I don’t think anyone here could definitely say that he was completely innocent, just that the State hadn’t proved beyond a reasonable doubt that he did it. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-botched-execution/693930/114 "2014-07-25T23:22:24Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > Big questions about whether it was arson or not /= “obviously completely innocent of any crime.” I would not have voted to convict, were I on that jury, and knowing what I now know about the case, especially the clown college fire science and (IMHO) unwarranted diagnosis of sociopathy during the penalty phase. Willingham was a piece of shit thief and wifebeater, not a sociopath. Further, the proseutor needs to be disbarred, if it’s true that there was a deal with the jailhouse snitch to lower his sentence, and that deal was never mentioned to the defense. > > But I don’t think anyone here could definitely say that he was completely innocent, just that the State hadn’t proved beyond a reasonable doubt that he did it. The guy lost his children in a fire that he had nothing to do with. The state then screwed up miserably, fucked up every turn along the way, put him in jail, spend over two million dollars on the case and murdered him. Yes, he was completely innocent. He had literally nothing to do with the fire or the deaths of his children. He didn’t set the fire and he didn’t hurt his kids. The case illustrates every single reason why the DP is a huge failure. Texans need to take a long, hard look at their justice system, figure out why Willingham was executed and what can be done so it never happens again. The same should be true of all my fellow Americans who need to tell our pols to revamp our justice system completely and utterly. We waste millions, imprison people for the most minor of crimes and create a system that simply does not work. It’s a disgrace and we can do better. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2014, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-botched-execution/693930/115 "2014-07-26T08:13:59Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > Big questions about whether it was arson or not /= “obviously completely innocent of any crime.” Not that that’s relevant in the US court system. ---
**Author:** ![common\_good](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f475e1/32.png) [@common\_good](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/common_good)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-botched-execution/693930/116 "2014-07-29T21:24:45Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > “The Land of the Free”? > > Whoever told you that is your enemy! I have no enemies, but lots of people dislike me. I doubt I’ll get any arguments about that. But I don’t have many friends, either. Yea, I’ve been brainwashed just like most everyone else. Children are brought-up to believe all kinds of nonsense. That these beliefs persists in many adults shouldn’t come as a surprise. But, it always does. My point ? Shit, I don’t remember. Maybe it has to do with sewage. The social type. Like Facebook, to name one. Or, the Republican National Committee. Or Fox News. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-botched-execution/693930/117 "2014-07-30T11:32:07Z")
Now it turns out there were [errors in forensics concerning the FBI spanning two decades.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/federal-review-stalled-after-finding-forensic-errors-by-fbi-lab-unit-spanned-two-decades/2014/07/29/04ede880-11ee-11e4-9285-4243a40ddc97_story.html) Under orders from the Justice Dept, an inquiry involving 2600 convictions and 45 death row cases from the 1980s and 1990s has been resumed. So if the best crime lab in the world can screw up for 20 years, you’d be a fool to think that state/local crime labs and prosecutors and juries and judges are all infallible and no wrongful executions happen. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-botched-execution/693930/118 "2014-07-30T11:41:22Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Now it turns out there were [errors in forensics concerning the FBI spanning two decades.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/federal-review-stalled-after-finding-forensic-errors-by-fbi-lab-unit-spanned-two-decades/2014/07/29/04ede880-11ee-11e4-9285-4243a40ddc97_story.html) Under orders from the Justice Dept, an inquiry involving 2600 convictions and 45 death row cases from\*\* the 1980s and 1990s \*\*[emphasis mine] has been resumed. > > So if the best crime lab in the world can screw up for 20 years, you’d be a fool to think that state/local crime labs and prosecutors and juries and judges are all infallible and no wrongful executions happen. So the mistakes stopped being made about 15 years ago, you say? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-botched-execution/693930/119 "2014-07-30T11:42:22Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > Yes, he was completely innocent. He had literally nothing to do with the fire or the deaths of his children. He didn’t set the fire and he didn’t hurt his kids. And what is the status of the wrongful death suit against the state on his behalf, then? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-botched-execution/693930/120 "2014-07-30T11:44:45Z")
> [@drewtwo99](#): > > Yeah I sometimes wonder if life imprisonment is worse than the death penalty. I’ve often heard those opposed to the death penalty say “death is too good for this person. I want them to rot in jail for decades,” or something along those lines. And I would disagree. _Any_ life, no matter how meager and joyless, is preferable to the eternal cessation of the self that death brings. Letting these kinds of people continue to exist is a luxury they don’t deserve. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-botched-execution/693930.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-botched-execution/693930.md?page=7)