# Another Brandon Teena . . .

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-brandon-teena/132878>\
**Category:** The BBQ Pit\
**Created:** [October 18, 2002, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-brandon-teena/132878 "2002-10-18T19:42:57Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 11

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**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\
**Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-brandon-teena/132878/201 "2002-10-25T20:06:42Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Lamia \*  
> \*\*  
> Brandon Teena did not have XY chromosomes. Brandon Teena did not believe himself to be a woman. Brandon Teena did not dress or act like a woman. Brandon Teena had XX chromosomes but identified, dressed, and behaved as a man. The publicity surrounding his brutal murder and the success of the documentary _The Brandon Teena Story_ and the fictionalized film _Boys Don’t Cry_ have made Brandon Teena posthumously one of the most famous transgendered Americans, and his story has been told in some detail in this very thread. I don’t see how you can expect anyone to take your views on this matter seriously if you can’t even be bothered to pay attention to the most basic facts involved.  
> \*\*

Well, I am sure you will admit it is a little difficult to keep track of what sex every whacked-out teen-ager in America has decided she is **this** week.

If she dresses up to try to convince people she is something else, let’s not get all pissy when it works.

First you say this -

> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Lamia \*  
> \*\*  
> Wrong. Genetics has told us nothing about gender because gender is not a biological concept.  
> \*\*

Then you say this -

> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Lamia \*  
> \*\*  
> There may be some biological basis for gender identity, but whatever physical factors may be involved they are clearly not limited to gentials/chromosomes.  
> \*\*

So which is it? Is gender identity physical, or not?

People like Eddie Araujo and Brandon Teena are deliberately mis-communicating, and their defenders are blaming others for not understanding what they were at pains to conceal.

They do not present themselves as members of a gender, but as members of a sex. They are not saying, “I am a member of the gender of guys who dress up as a girl, or the gender of girls who want to date other girls.” They are saying, “I am a girl” or “I am a guy”. They are going by the same definitions of sexual identity (genitals and genes, male and female) as everyone else.

So, unfortunately, did the people who murdered them both.

It is no good at all asking people to ignore what is objectively true (genes and genitals) in favor of what is going on inside someone’s head (“I am really a girl, despite the testicles”). Especially if the subject is doing everything in his/her power to make the task impossible.

Regards,  
Shodan

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**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\
**Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-brandon-teena/132878/202 "2002-10-25T20:14:02Z")

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BTW, what was Brandon Teena’s real name? (I’m guessing Teena Brandon?)

What about Billy Tipton?

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**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\
**Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-brandon-teena/132878/203 "2002-10-25T20:21:17Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by gigi \*  
> \*\*  
> Actually, by “femaleness and maleness”, I did mean gender as opposed to sex. And I can understand intellectually that it means something other than biological indicators. But what does it mean? People probably know you’re a woman because you physically look like a woman, have a higher voice, etc.  
> \*\*

Or do I? Strangers sometimes mistook me for a boy as an adolescent. But everyone who knew me always knew that I was a girl, and it wasn’t because I went around singing “I Enjoy Being a Girl” or anything.

As an adult I’ve done a bit of drag performing (see [here](http://www.geocities.com/yellowlamia/drag.html) for photos), and have even won prizes in competitions. And I can tell you this – looking like a man and speaking with a low voice are easy compared to _acting_ and _talking_ like a man (or even a _parody_ of a man, which is what drag is really about). I think it is barely possible that I could convince a new acquaintance that I was a man if I were in costume when we met, but I would have to work _very_ hard. Even then I doubt I could engage someone in a lengthy conversation without eventually giving myself away. The fact that transgendered people can keep up their “act” so much better than I can indicates to me that what they are doing is _not_ an act.

> [@](#):
>
> \*\*  
> An extremely “masculine” (in a traditional sense, vaild or not) woman is still considered a woman and in most cases considers herself a woman.

\*\*

Usually. Not always. And it’s the “not always” folks who are our concern here.

> [@](#):
>
> \*\*  
> Traits are labelled masculine or feminine by society; this is then an intrinsic natural thing rather than society’s categorizations?  
> \*\*

I think it should be obvious that many gender traits have nothing to do with biology at all. “Only women wear dresses” is a purely social convention. It is conceivable that some gender traits might be in some way influenced by biological characteristics, but I am sure that none of these have anything to do with a person’s genitals and that few, if any, have to do with a person’s chromosomal pattern. It seems to me that a likely explanation would be something like “People with brain structure A are likely to display behavioral characteristic B. Brain structure A is more common in females than males, so behavioral characteristic B is socially considered to be a feminine trait”.

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**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\
**Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-brandon-teena/132878/204 "2002-10-25T20:43:12Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \*  
> \*\*BTW, what was Brandon Teena’s real name? (I’m guessing Teena Brandon?)
> 
> What about Billy Tipton? \*\*

Brandon Teena’s real name was Brandon Teena. The name he was given at birth was Teena Brandon. I think Billy Tipton’s birth name was Lucille.

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**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\
**Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-brandon-teena/132878/205 "2002-10-25T20:51:42Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Shodan \*  
> **It is no good at all asking people to ignore what is objectively true (genes and genitals) in favor of what is going on inside someone’s head (“I am really a girl, despite the testicles”). Especially if the subject is doing everything in his/her power to make the task impossible.**

The point is, “I am a girl” != “I have such and such genitals.” As you say, genitals are objective, but womanhood is a matter that _combines_ physical facts, identity, and social convention in such a way that there are lots of different ways one can be a woman. It is simply not as simple as you are making it out (wanting it?) to be.

WRT your last sentence, just because you fail to understand it doesn’t mean people are out to make it difficult for you. God knows trans people would find it easier to live if they could explain it in a way everyone could understand, but just because everyone _doesn’t_ understand mean that they are deliberately obfuscating. I learned long ago that you can’t explain everything to everybody.

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**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\
**Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-brandon-teena/132878/206 "2002-10-25T21:00:28Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Shodan \*  
> \*\*Well, I am sure you will admit it is a little difficult to keep track of what sex every whacked-out teen-ager in America has decided she is **this** week.

\*\*

No I will not admit that, because it is false both literally and in all its implications.

> [@](#):
>
> \*\*  
> If she dresses up to try to convince people she is something else, let’s not get all pissy when it works.

\*\*

Brandon Teena never “dressed up to try to convince people” that he was a biological male who identified as a woman, so if that was the impression you got you were simply wrong and it had nothing to do with anything Brandon Teena ever did or how well he did it. You were wrong. You’ve been wrong about a lot of things here. Maybe you need a little practice in admitting that.

> [@](#):
>
> \*\*  
> So which is it? Is gender identity physical, or not?

\*\*

I think I said very clearly that there is a possibility that gender identity may in some way be influenced by biological factors. This should be perfectly understandable to anyone who does not foolishly insist upon reducing everything in life to a binary system.

> [@](#):
>
> \*\*  
> They do not present themselves as members of a gender, but as members of a sex.

\*\*

Wrong again, unless you have some proof that Brandon Teena ever said at any point in his tragically short life “I am a biological male with a normal set of male genitalia and an XY set of chromosomes”, or that Gwen/Lida Araujo ever said at any point in her tragically short life “I am a biological female with a normal set of female genitalia and an XX set of chromosomes”. I bet you don’t. In the case of Brandon Teena I’m _sure_ you don’t.

**Guin** , Brandon Teena’s legal name was Teena Brandon. He never actually used “Teena” as his surname during his life, but he did often use “Brandon” as his first name and has been commonly known as “Brandon Teena” since his death.

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**Author:** ![dorkusmalorkusmafia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorkusmalorkusmafia/32/7266_2.png) [@dorkusmalorkusmafia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dorkusmalorkusmafia)\
**Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-brandon-teena/132878/207 "2002-10-25T21:03:34Z")

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Shodan said

> [@](#):
>
> It is no good at all asking people to ignore what is objectively true (genes and genitals) in favor of what is going on inside someone’s head (“I am really a girl, despite the testicles”). Especially if the subject is doing everything in his/her power to make the task impossible.

Interesting backpeddaling you are doing there. On the previous page you agreed that you would be a man even regardless of the presence or absence of testicles and a penis.

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**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\
**Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-brandon-teena/132878/208 "2002-10-25T21:07:26Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Larry Mudd \*  
> \*\*  
> What if you were born into a society where the accepted determinate of gender was the absence or presence of a beard? Suppose that those without beards were termed “girls”, and it was considered socially acceptable for sexual relations to take place between any one with a beard, (a “man”,) and any one _without_ a beard, (a “girl”,) regardless of the genitalia that they possessed? Clearly, in that society, the situation described in the OP would never happen, and no one would argue that the murder victim was herself guilty of deception.
> 
> The society which I’ve described is not some unlikely hypothetical-- I’m talking about britain, about seven-hundred years ago. \*\*

What the? Am I the only one completely floored by this claim? So in 14th century Britain, if someone had grown up as a boy, was big, strong, had no breasts, had a penis, but had no beard, he was considered to be a woman? And vice versa? So at some point in their teens, when it was clear that young John was growing no beard, they started referring to him as Jane and made him wear a dress?

I can’t help but think that you’re somehow overstating this situation.

Not that it doesn’t make an interesting hypothetical, but I just can not believe that you’re accurately describing Britain seven hundred years ago…

A few other thoughts:  
(1) This shouldn’t need restating, but it seems that it does… to those of you who are members of groups who are misunderstood and victimized with some frequency, please don’t assume that SDMB posters who disagree with you, argue with you, question you, or even say things that you find deeply insulting, are people who would either perpetrate acts of violence against you for who you are, or sit by idly while such acts are perpetrated. There’s a repeated pattern of conversation that goes something like this:

A: I am someone who gets sexual gratification from getting my hair cut.  
B: I have never met someone of that sort. I am basically open minded and curious, but perhaps I don’t express that perfectly and let some stereotypical anti-barbersexual lingo slip into my post.  
A: It’s close minded bigots like you who killed martyr-to-the-barbersexual-cause

As a basically liberal and open minded person myself who has led a relatively sheltered life, nothing makes me less eager to have my horizons expanded than being yelled at and called a bigot. Not that it’s your responsibiltity to open my mind. On the other hand, if your’e not going to open the minds of the liberal-open-minded-but-as-of-yet-ignorant segments of middle America, who is?

Similarly…

A: If I had sex with a person and then found out they were not the biological sex I thought they were, I would be very upset. I’m not quite sure how I would react… I certainly wouldn’t kill that person, but might get somewhat violent.  
B: \*&^%$#@! MURDERING THUG! YOU SHOULD BE LOCKED UP.

is hardly fair or productive either. Person A certainly isn’t saying that violence would be right or justified, or that they’re happy or comfortable that that would be their reaction. Nor, for that matter, are they even certain that their reaction _would_ be violence. And how many people are so perfect that they would never, in any situation, use violence and then regret it?

(Note: I’m not trying to be an apologist for **Shodan** who, while raising some interesting points, has done so with some horrificly, inexcusably insensitive choice of words…)  
(2) If nothing else, the moral of this thread seems to be the inadequacy of the English language, and the world-image that it leads to, for describing complex situations of race and gender, leading to seeming paradoxes in which **KellyM** says that **KellyM** is a woman, and **Shodan** says that **KellyM** is not a woman, and I don’t think that either one of them is wrong. The problem is that the word “woman” does not have a precise and unambiguous definition. That said, I absolutely respect **KellyM** ’s right to identify and live her life as she sees fit. (I’m sure transsexuals everywhere will sleep safer tonight knowing that they have my approbation 🙂 )

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**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\
**Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-brandon-teena/132878/209 "2002-10-25T21:14:57Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by matt\_mcl \*  
> \*\*
> 
> Brandon Teena’s real name was Brandon Teena. The name he was given at birth was Teena Brandon. I think Billy Tipton’s birth name was Lucille. \*\*

Sorry, but you know what I mean by real name.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\
**Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-brandon-teena/132878/210 "2002-10-25T21:16:17Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> Well, I am sure you will admit it is a little difficult to keep track of what sex every whacked-out teen-ager in America has decided she is this week.

You still don’t get it, do you, **Shodan**???

:rolleyes:

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**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\
**Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-brandon-teena/132878/211 "2002-10-25T21:47:55Z")

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[Here It Is](http://www.symposion.com/ijt/ijtc0106.htm)  
I’m hoping that there’s been more work in this area.

KellyM-I knew that I should have checked to be sure that _my_ terms were accurate.

Larry-Great post.

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**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\
**Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-brandon-teena/132878/212 "2002-10-25T21:52:59Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*\*Well, I am sure you will admit it is a little difficult to keep track of what sex every whacked-out teen-ager in America has decided she is this week.  
> \*\*

I think this is the kind of thing most of us (okay, at least I) have a problem with. **Shodan** , it’s not so much your arguing about how to define male and female, but more about your absolute lack of respect for transsexuals and transgendered people (I have to admit, I didn’t entirely understand the explanation of the difference).

I think you need to recognize that these are real issues that real people deal with, and not just “mind-games”. They are not games. It is reality.

It is also important to note when one wants to discredit the entire phenomenon of transsexuality that, as far as I remember, it has been going on pretty much since the dawn of mankind. This is an established phenomenon, and I think it would help the debate a lot if you recognized that.

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**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\
**Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-brandon-teena/132878/213 "2002-10-25T22:08:11Z")

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[link](http://www.genderpsychology.org/psychology/BSTc.html)

Re-“This Week”  
As the gay and lesbian Dopers can attest, realization of sexual orientation is not usually a sudden revelation. Admitting and acting on these feelings also tends to be a gradual process. At least one gay Doper(sorry, I’m terrible with names) got married and had a son before realizing that he was gay. Gwen’s clothing and actions are inconsistent because she was learning who she was and how to live as that person.

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**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\
**Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-brandon-teena/132878/214 "2002-10-25T22:19:55Z")

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**Shodan** , until you retract your claim that I am a liar, I shall have no intention of discussing these matters with you further. I consider honesty to be a prime virtue and any accusation that I am not being honest (which you have done when you claim that I am practicing deception) is a grave insult not to be forgiven easily.

**Polycarp** , an example of a nontranssexual transgender would be RuPaul. RuPaul has no intention of obtaining a reassignment and does not live his life substantially as a woman. Other examples include transvestitic fetishists (men who wear women’s clothes solely for sexual reasons) and a variety of other things. The term “transgender” is a [mixed bag](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=1871494#post1871494) of different groups, many of which really have little in common with one another. [I rather dislike the term](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=2158862#post2158862), but it seems to have stuck.

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**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\
**Post date:** [October 26, 2002, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-brandon-teena/132878/215 "2002-10-26T00:07:00Z")

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**MaxTheVool** :  
Yes, it is hard to believe, but only because it’s so far outside of our experience. And your intuition is correct, my description was not an accurate description of the 1400’s – my confusion, as it’s something I came across while studying Chaucer-- by then the situation had changed dramatically due to exotic influences, although there were vestigial traces of that way of thinking:

> [@](#):
>
> No berd hadde he, ne nevere sholde have;  
> As smothe it was as it were late shave,  
> I trowe he were a geldyng _or a mare_.  
> –Canterbury Tales

Also many references in early lit. to young men as “meer girles.”

(Sorry for the hijack, carry on folks.)

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\
**Post date:** [October 26, 2002, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-brandon-teena/132878/216 "2002-10-26T03:53:36Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Lamia \*  
> \*\*  
> I think I said very clearly that there is a possibility that gender identity may in some way be influenced by biological factors. This should be perfectly understandable to anyone who does not foolishly insist upon reducing everything in life to a binary system.  
> \*\*

Nope. First you said gender wasn’t a biological construct, then you said it was influenced by biology. A contradiction.

> [@](#):
>
> ## \*Originally posted by Lamia \* \*\* quote:
> 
> Originally posted by Shodan  
> Well, I am sure you will admit it is a little difficult to keep track of what sex every whacked-out teen-ager in America has decided she is this week.
> 
> * * *
> 
> No I will not admit that, because it is false both literally and in all its implications.  
> \*\*

No, it is quite literally true that it was difficult to tell what sex Eddie/Gwen was, and that this was his/her intent. Even people he had sex with didn’t know.

> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Lamia \*  
> \*\*  
> Wrong again, unless you have some proof that Brandon Teena ever said at any point in his tragically short life “I am a biological male with a normal set of male genitalia and an XY set of chromosomes”, or that Gwen/Lida Araujo ever said at any point in her tragically short life “I am a biological female with a normal set of female genitalia and an XX set of chromosomes”. I bet you don’t.  
> \*\*

The guys he had sex with seemed to have gotten the idea from somewhere, and their subsequent actions certainly show that they would not have had sex with him if they knew he was a biological and physical male.

**dorkusmalorkus** - back pedalling how? Eddie A. had male genes and male genitals - therefore male. Losing one expression of his male genes - a penis - does not affect the maleness of his genes.

**KellyM** - no one called you a liar. I said Eddie Araujo was being deceptive by presenting himself as if he were female and having sex with unconsenting males under that pretense.

> [@](#):
>
> The point is, “I am a girl” != “I have such and such genitals.”

The point is, such a statement deprives the terms “girl” or “male” or “female” of any meaning at all. If a “woman” can have a penis _or_] a vagina, and can have XX or XY chromosomes, then in saying so-and-so is a woman, you haven’t succeeded in saying anything at all. And in saying “I am a woman - have sex with me” you are being deceptive.

It would be like saying so-and-so is a midget, who is six feet tall. What meaning does the word “midget” hold in that sentence?

You cannot assign arbitrary meanings to words, and then act the injured innocent when you are misunderstood.

You want to say that you are gay, or bisexual, or a transvestite, or a bottom, or something like that, things are fine, because these words have clearly understood meanings. If you start saying “gay” really means “trumpet player”, don’t get upset when you ask someone if you can toot their horn, and they misunderstand.

Regards,  
Shodan

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**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\
**Post date:** [October 26, 2002, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-brandon-teena/132878/217 "2002-10-26T04:32:38Z")

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**Shodan** , you are calling me a liar when you claimed that any pre-operative male-to-female transsexual who calls herself a woman is “acting deceptively”. There was nothing about “have sex with me” in your previous statement.

I continue to take offense at the original insult and take added offense at your attempts to wiggle out of it.

And you can stuff your “regards” back up the orifice out of which they spewed.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\
**Post date:** [October 26, 2002, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-brandon-teena/132878/218 "2002-10-26T04:38:35Z")

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**Lamia** , I think there is such a thing as “biological gender” – it’s just that the coupling between genotype and biological gender is not perfect.

Biological gender is not necessarily coupled with social gender, either, although when the coupling is poor the individual in question usually suffers distress. Social gender is entirely a social construct, while biological gender appears to be an inherent neuroanatomical concept established sometime before birth.

I see the statements that **Shodan** labeled a contradiction rather as an equivocation on the term “gender”; in one case it was used to refer to social gender while in the other it was used to refer to biological gender. Ambiguous use of language often leads to apparent contradiction.

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**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\
**Post date:** [October 26, 2002, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-brandon-teena/132878/219 "2002-10-26T05:28:04Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> The point is, such a statement deprives the terms “girl” or “male” or “female” of any meaning at all.

No, it deprives them of a _static_ meaning that applies to _everyone everywhere under every circumstance_. Indeterminacy != meaninglessness. This is nothing either new or particularly complex.

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**Author:** ![j\_kat\_251](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/71c47a/32.png) [@j\_kat\_251](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j_kat_251)\
**Post date:** [October 26, 2002, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-brandon-teena/132878/220 "2002-10-26T06:11:33Z")

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Well, actually, dickhead, I’d be thinking that for most fucking sane people, the “fact” (as presented in this thread) that male isn’t necessarily male and female ain’t necessarily female is kind of, well… lacking.

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