# Another Brandon Teena . . . **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 18, 2002, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-brandon-teena/132878 "2002-10-18T19:42:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2002, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-brandon-teena/132878/101 "2002-10-23T02:04:57Z")
**Shodan** , it’s quite clear that your interpretation is that nobody has the right to lie so as to someone else gay. That is, anyone who conceals their maleness from another man who is deceived into having unknowing _homosexual intercourse_ has been devastatingly and irreparably harmed. To you, I say, “Horseshit.” Nobody is being harmed except people with extremely narrow minds about sexuality. And, if you’re going to have sex with people you don’t know very well, you probably shouldn’t have a narrow mind about sexuality. I don’t see Lida as having committed any serious offense. It’s not my obligation to preemptorily declare that I was born with a penis to everyone I meet on the off chance they want to have sex with me. It’s not even my obligation to tell them that after it becomes clear that they want to have sex with me. I won’t lie about it if asked (although I may refuse to answer). If it’s so important to you that you never have sex with a person with XY chromosomes, then I suggest you ask all your sexual partners that question before you commence the sexual encounter. I have no obligation to volunteer that information than I do to tell you I own a Toyota. ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2002, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-brandon-teena/132878/102 "2002-10-23T02:14:42Z")
Hm, I misstated that. It’s “any man who is deceived into having _homosexual intercourse_ with another man who deceives his maleness has been devastatingly and irreparably harmed”. My apologies for any confusion this may cause. ---
**Author:** ![Rhum\_Runner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rhum\_Runner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhum_Runner)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2002, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-brandon-teena/132878/103 "2002-10-23T02:20:11Z")
I think I have to agree with **Shodan** and **catsix** on this. The simple declaration, ‘I am a woman’ does not make it so. A man who declares he is a woman is just that; a man that declares he is a woman. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2002, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-brandon-teena/132878/104 "2002-10-23T02:36:32Z")
Nice to see you deign to come from on high and settle this for us **Rhum Runner**. And **catsix** , instead of going away with hurt feelings, you should step back and realize your question may have been inserted too late in the discussion. I won’t lump you in with **Shodan** and **Rhum Runner** , because I think you were asking an honest question to try to understand. This well is perhaps too poisoned and emotions already too high to get your question answered calmly. I feel certain **Sterra** or **KellyM** could have answered less defensively had they not already faced the stupidity of Shodan. How about it ladies? Can you see that, perhaps, **catsix** was making an honest effort? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2002, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-brandon-teena/132878/105 "2002-10-23T02:47:06Z")
The notion that gender (a subtle concept) is determined by sex (a gross concept) is no more or less obvious than the notion that the sun revolves around the earth, and no more or less accurate. If you remove the enculturated prejudices against transgendered people, this becomes an uncontroversial point which is much easier to see. Absenting these prejudices, it’s very difficult to describe precisely how Araujo is supposed to have transgressed against her attackers. Insisting on a basic male/female gender dichotomy is allowing yourself to go through life tripping over excluded middles every time you try to describe someone who falls outside these narrow and arbitrary definitions-- something that’s bound to happen pretty frequently unless you spend your entire life in a cave. In a certain sense, it can be, (and has been,) argued that [you _do_ spend your entire life in a cave](http://alpha.furman.edu/~mstone/advancedweb/platos.htm). In a lot of ways, the human race has really backslid in the last 2,500 years. But I’m betting we’ll get things worked out in the end, praise be to Cecil. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2002, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-brandon-teena/132878/106 "2002-10-23T02:49:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KellyM \* > \*\*So, if I’m not a man, and you won’t let me be a woman, what am I? \*\* 24-carat fucking out of luck. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2002, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-brandon-teena/132878/107 "2002-10-23T02:55:36Z")
I was, but right now I think the instant reaction to imply that I’m just some intolerant asshole is going to make it hard for me to discuss this calmly for a while. So, I’m sorry I asked. Not because I don’t really want to understand, but because I really do want to understand. Because this is not the result I hoped for, and I’m even further from understanding than I was yesterday. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2002, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-brandon-teena/132878/108 "2002-10-23T02:57:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KellyM \* > \*\ ***Shodan** , it’s quite clear that your interpretation is that nobody has the right to lie so as to someone else gay. That is, anyone who conceals their maleness from another man who is deceived into having unknowing _homosexual intercourse_ has been devastatingly and irreparably harmed. > > To you, I say, “Horseshit.” Nobody is being harmed except people with extremely narrow minds about sexuality. And, if you’re going to have sex with people you don’t know very well, you probably shouldn’t have a narrow mind about sexuality. > \*\* Objecting to being lied to is having an “extremely narrow mind”? Being deceived into sex is harmless? Would you apply the same low standard of behavior to other forms of deception? Lying about your HIV status? Lying about being committed to another relationship? How about slipping roofies into someone’s drink and then making advances? Obviously just another form of manipulation to get sex, isn’t it? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KellyM \* > \*\* > If it’s so important to you that you never have sex with a person with XY chromosomes, then I suggest you ask all your sexual partners that question before you commence the sexual encounter. I have no obligation to volunteer that information than I do to tell you I own a Toyota. \*\* The problem being, if I do ask, and get told a lie in return, according to you I have no kick coming. I just have to grin and bear it, because of your absolute right to force me to join your fantasies. “By any means necessary”, as Malcolm X said in a much different but more honest context. Feh. The stuff people are willing to justify, if it gets them laid. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2002, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-brandon-teena/132878/109 "2002-10-23T03:16:11Z")
> [@](#): > > Being deceived into sex is harmless? How the fuck are you harmed by getting a blow job, even if you didn’t know it was from a guy? They still enjoyed it enough to brag about it. Only when it turned out it was a transgendered person who gave it to them was there a problem. But I still want to know how they were harmed in any way? And how the fuck do you compare it with someone knowingly lying about their HIV status? You are being intentionally inflammatory now. I hope **Polycarp** can now recognize just how big of a bigot and asshole you are and will quit defending you. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2002, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-brandon-teena/132878/110 "2002-10-23T03:41:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shodan \* > \*\*Objecting to being lied to is having an “extremely narrow mind”? > \*\* What makes you so certain that Araujo lied? I think it’s extremely unlikely that she ever said, “By the way, I have a vagina” to anyone. Wearing a dress and using a feminine name isn’t lying. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Being deceived into sex is harmless? > \*\* If anyone was taken advantage of sexually it was poor Araujo. She was just a teenager. These were grown men who had sex with her (and I wouldn’t be so quick to assume that _she_ was the one who initiated it), and grown men who murdered her. ---
**Author:** ![Rhum\_Runner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rhum\_Runner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhum_Runner)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2002, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-brandon-teena/132878/111 "2002-10-23T04:03:52Z")
**Nice to see you deign to come from on high and settle this for us Rhum Runner.** No problem. Happy to be of service. Feel free to call upon me at any time. ---
**Author:** ![Sterra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8c91f0/32.png) [@Sterra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterra)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2002, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-brandon-teena/132878/112 "2002-10-23T04:07:59Z")
> [@](#): > > ## quote: > > Originally posted by Sterra > > Intersex doesn’t always mean ambiguous genitalia or chromosomes that correspond with outward appearance. > > * * * > > Entirely true. Good thing I never said anything of the sort, or I would have been mistaken. Ok, then I guess I misunderstood you. What did you mean by > [@](#): > > There are cases of people being born with genetic anomalies that confuse gender identity. This wasn’t one of them. I am guessing misunderstanding will be common in this when you give cites that dissagree you and you claim that you understand them. You show an incredible amount of willfull ignorance, but then I guess you need that ignorance to keep your world view. So I can understand why you can possibly believe that things like gender assignment aren’t arbritrary after reading the links you gave me if you actually read them. Let me quote the third link again just for effect > [@](#): > > In what are believed to be the first studies of their kind, Hopkins researchers followed the development of 27 genetically male children - with normal XY male chromosomes. All were born with cloacal exstrophy, a rare, major defect characterized by lack of a penis, but presence of normal testicles, indicating exposure to normal male hormone patterns before birth. Twenty-five of the children were reassigned by physicians at birth, castrated and raised as females. Presenting the findings at the Lawson Wilkins Pediatric Endocrine Society Meeting in Boston today, William G. Reiner, M.D., a child and adolescent psychiatrist and urologist at the Hopkins Children’s Center, reported that the majority of these children, between the ages of 5 and 16, have subsequently “reassigned” themselves back to males. All 27 showed strong male behaviors, activities and attitudes. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2002, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-brandon-teena/132878/113 "2002-10-23T05:40:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Homebrew \* > \*\* > > How the fuck are you harmed by getting a blow job, even if you didn’t know it was from a guy? They still enjoyed it enough to brag about it. Only when it turned out it was a transgendered person who gave it to them was there a problem. > > But I still want to know how they were harmed in any way? > \*\* I imagine it could cause some emotional distress. In particular I could see how someone with little sexual experience could sustain heavy emotional damage by finding out a heterosexual encounter was closer to a homosexual encounter. Not that this is the case with Gwen. Despite what some may believe I think it is more then just a matter of being narrow or open minded in regards to sexuality. I’d be pretty upset upond finding out that the woman I’ve been dating for four months has a penis. Marc ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2002, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-brandon-teena/132878/114 "2002-10-23T05:46:04Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **Rhum Runner** _ > > Feel free to call upon me at any time. Great - no need to post anymore, as we’ll let you know when we need you. Buh-bye! :rolleyes: Esprix ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2002, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-brandon-teena/132878/115 "2002-10-23T05:52:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shodan \* > \*\*The problem being, if I do ask, and get told a lie in return, according to you I have no kick coming. I just have to grin and bear it, because of your absolute right to force me to join your fantasies. \*\* It’s quite true that you have no “kick” coming; a lie alone does not properly beget violence. You are, of course, entitled to be upset. In any case, there is no evidence that Gwen lied to anyone, so your fascination with being lied to is offbase anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Tansu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/67e7ee/32.png) [@Tansu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tansu)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2002, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-brandon-teena/132878/116 "2002-10-23T09:24:42Z")
**Shodan** , do you _still_ think that transgenderism is merely a question of “pretending” or “lying” in order to “get into someone’s pants”? What do you say to **Larry Mudd** ’s statement that: > [@](#): > > I don’t wear men’s clothes in order to have sex with women, I wear men’s clothes because that’s what feels natural and comfortable for me. I’m sure that Araujo’s motivation for selecting a wardrobe are along parallel lines. Why assume an intent to deceive? I don’t feel like a woman because I have tits and a cunt and a pair of ovaries. I feel like a woman because I… feel like a woman. Gender identity comes from various brain factors, not all of them fully understood (we’re talking about little regions in the brain that tend to be larger in men than in women or vice versa - that sort of thing). In the vast majority of cases, the brain and body “agree”. But sometimes they don’t. If (say - cos I don’t actually know fer shure how many gender realted sites there are in the brain) 4 out of 5 gender sites in the brain say “woman” even though the chromosomes and genitals say “man” - what do you do? What the hell do you do? Me, I’d make like **KellyM** and start the tough process of transitioning, to make sure that a) the outside world related to me as I was in my brain, and b) that my body could be brought into line with my brain, as far as possible. Women’s brains are, on the whole, different from men’s brains. this is _not_ to say that all women think alike. It’s to say that among the thousands and thousands of brain characteristics that make up all the aspects of our personality, there are a very small number that are related to gender identity, and a few more that are related to gender on a kind of sliding scale (thus you have tomboys, girlie girls, and everyone in between). ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2002, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-brandon-teena/132878/117 "2002-10-23T12:13:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Homebrew \* > \*\* > > How the fuck are you harmed by getting a blow job, even if you didn’t know it was from a guy? They still enjoyed it enough to brag about it. Only when it turned out it was a transgendered person who gave it to them was there a problem. > > But I still want to know how they were harmed in any way? \*\* “So he swore up and down that he wasn’t married. Turns out he was - so how is that harmful?” “So you got groped on the subway. How is that harmful?” “So he called you a faggot. How is that harmful?” For heaven’s sake - **listen** to yourself! **Sterra** - The link I provided is evidence that genotype is determinative of gender. That is why the 27 XY cases examined showed strong male tendencies, even though castrated and raised as females. It therefore argues _against_ your idea that gender is arbitrarily assigned. You asked for cites to prove my statements that genetic and genital abnormalities exist. That is what I provided. The misunderstanding is yours, not mine. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2002, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-brandon-teena/132878/118 "2002-10-23T12:54:57Z")
The sum of the research to date is that genotype is **influential** on gender, but is not determinative. The actual situation is (as usual) more complex than those with simple mindsets want to deal with. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2002, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-brandon-teena/132878/119 "2002-10-23T15:06:45Z")
Cite? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Bomzaway](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e480ec/32.png) [@Bomzaway](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bomzaway)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2002, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-brandon-teena/132878/120 "2002-10-23T17:06:02Z")
Imagine being a 25 year old hetero male. You’re chatting up a pretty young thing at a party. Next thing you know, you’re in the back seat of your car fulfilling the desired outcome of the evening and then much to your chagrin, your partner turns out to be a guy. (Being a “guy” according to just about any 25 year old hetero male means, having a penis.) What do you feel? Betrayal? Disgust? Rage? Considering that people at the party probably knew that she was a he and word might get around about this, embarassments galore. More rage? Just about any hetero male, when their masculinity is threatened, will (or would like to) violently lash out and/or otherwise make masculine displays so as to assure themselves and others that they are truly masculine. It’s like that scene in Planes, Trains, and Automobiles when Candy and Martin wake up in a spooning position, then pop out of bed and start discussing football. It’s what guys do. I’m not saying such behavior is right or wrong, but it certainly is a well known aspect of male behavior. Now obviously murder is unacceptable, but if (assuming that the three guys were deceived about Araujo’s sex) Gwen came back afterwards with a black eye and a bloody nose, I’d have to say, “What the hell did you expect?” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-brandon-teena/132878.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-brandon-teena/132878.md?page=7)