# Another Brandon Teena . . . **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 18, 2002, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-brandon-teena/132878 "2002-10-18T19:42:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2002, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-brandon-teena/132878/141 "2002-10-24T02:08:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bomzaway \* > \*\* > > And your inability to respond with anything other than weak sarcasm shows that you’re not following your own advice. \*\* Eh?There’s absolutely **no** sarcasm in my previous post. What the hell are you talking about? My point was that your attitude reflects a poor understanding of gender identity, and more disturbingly, a poor grasp of basic human decency. Perhaps if religious groups weren’t so opposed to [efforts[/url to [url=“http://www.publiceye.org/magazine/v15n1/State\_of\_Christian\_Rt-06.htm”]educate people](http://www.washblade.com/national/020830laramie.php3) about gender issues and [homosexuality](http://www.advocate.com/new_news.asp?id=6675&sd=10/18/02)- two different issues, by the way - then progress towards eliminating violence could be made. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2002, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-brandon-teena/132878/142 "2002-10-24T05:55:31Z")
I’m going to interrupt this bickering for a moment, because I am crying. I went to San Francisco with my friend a couple nights ago. As we were getting coffee at a gas station, the news reported this killing. My friend went pale. We were going to San Francisco to film a movie I’m making that deals partially with a transgendered love story. My friend lives most of life as a male, but only out of fear. All he wants (and I use he only because I know him as a “he” most of the time…which could change…I’m a little confused by what pronoun would be appropriate in this situation) is to be a girl but not be killed. It’s so simple. He is so beautiful. Why can’t he be happy? Why does he have to hear about yet another person like him being killed? He told me that many people will get the symbol for whatever sex their anatomy connotes tatooed on their arms so that nobody every mistakes what kind of genitals they have. He told me for the sake of accuracy of my film, he’d consider getting one for himself. Why the fuck does he have to even consider disfiguring himself with a symbol of the body that he hates just so he doesn’t get killed? It’s the saddest possible thing I can think of. All he wants is to be a girl. Thats all he wants in the world. And for that, one day, somebody may take this beautiful, intellegent, funny and loving person’s life. I’ve always asked why he doesn’t go out as a woman more often. I don’t ask that anymore. I can’t stop crying. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2002, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-brandon-teena/132878/143 "2002-10-24T12:12:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bomzaway \* > **If I were the guy being deceived, I’m sure I wouldn’t kill Gwen, but I’m not sure if I wouldn’t physically or mentally abuse Gwen. I know that’s not the PC answer, but I’m trying to be honest about this, and I honestly do not know if I could hold back from doing something to hurt Gwen. That could be a punch or two, to driving Gwen out to the middle of nowhere and leaving him, or any number of other things done out of the need to retaliate for what happened. I don’t know. I might do anything. I might do nothing.** Then you are a scary-sounding individual, and my only real question is why others and the Moderators are not in here stomping your electronic guts out. What else in daily life threatens your, ahem, “manhood” such that you have to re-exert it by committing crimes? If a person cuts you off in traffic, doesn’t that threaten your “manhood”? If a person gets promoted over you at work (I think those evil homosexuals call it “topping”), hasn’t your “manhood” been threatened? Oooo…what about telemarketers. Don’t they threaten your “manhood” too, by daring to upset the “majesty” of “the Man” in his own home? What sexual pop-up ads, that promise to give you a 24-inch prehensile penis? All of these things “deceive” you and threaten your “manhood”. What about women who reject your advances? What about a woman that asks you out for drinks, but really needed a friend - what’s in store for her - a good pimp slap, or a remedial rapin’? What about a woman who starts to initiate sex, but changes her mind because she discovers what a violent and unstable person you are - she led you on, didn’t she? You didn’t get your nookie - so I suggest you slap her around a bit, rape her a few times, then drive her out to the middle of nowhere and leave her. Yeah. You da man! Wouldn’t you just like to make them all pay? Huh? > [@](#): > > **One thing I am sure of is that I’d be hurt. And the pain would last for quite some time. Much longer than any bruises that I might inflict on my deceiver. I am quite sure this would be true for anyone in the same situation.** Oh Jesus…yeah, I’m certain that the fucks that killed Brandon Teena are suffering far more than Brandon ever did. Shit fire and save the matches - why punish the little darlings at all, since they suffer so much? > [@](#): > > You need only talk to 10 different men on the street and pose the same scenario to each of them and I guarantee that most, if not all, would come back with, “I’d kick his ass!” or something similar. Whether or not they’d actually follow through with that action is a different matter, and after some thought, some of them might change their stance. But most assuredly, the initial reaction would be the same and that would involve re-establishing their masculinity through some sort of action. > > Unfortunately, the most masculine action that most guys can think of off the top of their head is, “Kickin’ ass”. The only thing that that convinces me of is that, despite the whining of liberals, we are not incarcerating _nearly_ enough of Society. > [@](#): > > It’s like that story that Forrest Whitaker tells in The Crying Game about the scorpion riding on the rats back to cross a river. “I can’t help it” says the scorpion to the stung rat as they’re noth sinking, “I’m a scorpion. It’s in my nature.” If your argument is that it is the “nature” of men to commit violence, and murder, to establish their “manhood”, then perhaps we all need a substitute for men. ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2002, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-brandon-teena/132878/144 "2002-10-24T12:17:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by catsix \* > I’m having a hard time seeing how that’s totally irrelevant. \*\* That’s because you’re apparently suffering from the inability to understand what you read, and also the inability to recognize that the world is not printed in black and white. ---
**Author:** ![Tansu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/67e7ee/32.png) [@Tansu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tansu)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2002, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-brandon-teena/132878/145 "2002-10-24T12:23:54Z")
I think **Bomzaway** is confusing “things he thinks because he is a man” with “things he thinks because he is a barely housetrained asshole” ---
**Author:** ![Tansu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/67e7ee/32.png) [@Tansu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tansu)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2002, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-brandon-teena/132878/146 "2002-10-24T12:30:18Z")
and further to the point that **catsix** raised (cos I see that **KellyM** just responded, and I thought of something I wanted to say) I’m quite attached to my tits. I like them. My uterus and ovaries are part of my _biological_ womanhood, too. If they all had to go, I’d be a little upset. But, because my primary and secondary sexual characteristics _are not the sole determinant of my gender identity_, I wouldn’t be telling everyone I know to stop calling me “she” and start calling me “it”. Removal of those organs would not stop me being a woman. I’d like some breast reconstruction, sure - becuase I’d still like to appear feminine, and to present myself to the world as a woman. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2002, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-brandon-teena/132878/147 "2002-10-24T12:36:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tansu \* > \*\*I think **Bomzaway** is confusing “things he thinks because he is a man” with “things he thinks because he is a barely housetrained asshole” \*\* As a standard-issue boy myself (and housetrained to boot), I believe I can confirm this. ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2002, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-brandon-teena/132878/148 "2002-10-24T12:52:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MGibson \* > \*\*You use the word confused but I think many others would use the word deceived. Brandon Teena’s girlfriends were not confused about his physiological sex they were deceived into thinking he was a physiological male. \*\* We don’t know in Gwen’s case whether there was any active deception involved. Brandon did indeed lie to his partners and I find fault with him for that (there is a great deal about Brandon’s conduct that I find disquieting, in fact). I haven’t seen any evidence that Gwen lied to any of her partners, however, and so I do not believe the term “deceived” is appropriate here. > [@](#): > > \*\*So you at least recognize the possibility for emotional strain? Is it only narrowly minded people who risk emotional harm from such encounters? \*\* I think the risk of emotional strain is substantially increased by having a narrow mind. ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2002, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-brandon-teena/132878/149 "2002-10-24T12:54:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by even sven \* > \*\*He told me that many people will get the symbol for whatever sex their anatomy connotes tatooed on their arms so that nobody every mistakes what kind of genitals they have. \*\* I have never heard of this practice, despite considerable contact with the “transgendered community”. I’ve certainly never heard of a transsexual doing that. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2002, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-brandon-teena/132878/150 "2002-10-24T12:58:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dorkusmalorkusmafia \* > \*\*This is really so simple. > \*\* Maybe. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dorkusmalorkusmafia \* > \*\* > Shodan, let’s say for an instant that you were involved in an accident and had your penis and testicles removed leaving some type of gaping hole. Also, the absence of testicles can sometimes lead a man to grow breasts (and lose facial and body hair), let’s assume this is the case with you too. Would you still identify as a man? I can bet you would. > \*\* Of course I would. I would take testosterone supplements, so I would not grow breasts or lose my facial hair, but I would still not have male genitalia (absent plastic surgery). > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dorkusmalorkusmafia \* > \*\* > Now, let’s say that your mother or grandmother has had a hysterectomy. If you don’t know, a hysterectomy typically removes the ovaries and uterus of a woman. Do you still consider them women? I bet you do. > \*\* As a matter of fact, my mom has. My father the veterinarian, never to be confused with Phil Donahue at his best moments, once referred to it as “the time your mother was spayed”. But yes, she is still a woman. She still has her external genitalia (vagina, clitoris, cervix, etc.) Does this affect your argument? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dorkusmalorkusmafia \* > \*\* > Let’s get rid of their last secondary sexual characteristic. Now let’s say that one of the two women above has also had breast cancer and thus had to have a mamectomy (having the breasts removed), are they still women now? Following your logic they would be. > \*\* Yes. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dorkusmalorkusmafia \* > \*\* > Why do you think that is? They people above don’t have sexual organs anymore but you still likely consider them to be whatever gender they were originally. > > So far we have established that neither the absence or presence of genitalia determines the gender. Pretty simply too. So what determines the gender, it is how the individual perceives themselves. Easy enough. > \*\* Nope. It’s genetic expression, not perception. You are making a _non sequiteur_. I perceive my mother (and my hypothetical castrated self) as female and male, respectively, because we were born with the distinguishing marks of our genders, which are expressive of our genes. I have a penis, testicles, and XY chromosomes. My mom had ovaries, a uterus, a vagina, and XX chromosomes. Losing one’s genitalia does not affect one’s genotype. Neither does believing one is “a woman trapped in a man’s body”. If you wanted to postulate some future world in which you could not only obtain surgery on one’s genitalia to change a penis to a vagina, but alter all the chromosomes in one’s body from XY to XX, I would consider that to be true sex transformation surgery. Someone who underwent such a procedure would be a “real” woman. And there are people with ambiguous genotypes, as my links mentioned. Such people are truly ambiguous in their gender. But neither Eddie Araujo, nor Brandon Teena, nor anyone in this thread (as far as I know) had anything ambiguous in their genetic structure. That is not what I understand everyone to be talking about when they mention “transgendered” people. What I am talking about, and what I thought everyone else is talking about, is people like Eddie Araujo, who have male genitals, and XY chromosomes, but think they are “really” women in some poorly defined sense. Because they “feel like a woman”, or “think like a woman”. However, since they are genetically and physically male, I would not classify them as female in any real sense, but simply, and badly, confused about their sexuality. It happens. If they choose to work out their problems in some way that does not involve others, I have no issue with that. Even if they want to get together with their friends, and play dress up, and nobody is involved against their will, I have no issue with that either. If you want to get your thrills from being fellated by a guy in a skirt, that has nothing to do with me. And in the same way, if I dismiss your behavior with a snicker at the range of weirdness displayed in human behavior, that has nothing to do with you either. You leave me alone to perform my disgusting sexual rituals, and I will leave you alone to perform yours. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by even sven \* > \*\* > _(Speaking of his “transgendered” friend)_ > All he wants is to be a girl. Thats all he wants in the world. > \*\* People in hell want ice water. That doesn’t mean they can get it. Reality doesn’t change, even if you really, really want it to. Your friend can get a tattoo saying he is male, or female, or the Queen of England on a motor scooter for all I care. I’m not going to kill him for it. But if he tries, thru deception or otherwise, to get me to buy into his fantasies, I will politely decline. You want to play sick games, that’s your problem. Don’t try to rope me into it. I got problems of my own. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2002, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-brandon-teena/132878/151 "2002-10-24T13:07:02Z")
**Bomzaway** I’m hoping that I’ve misunderstood you. At present, you sound like one of the violent, sexist male criminals whom Linda Carter was always fighting. You seem to be saying that any truly masculine man would react with violence. So any of the men saying that they wouldn’t get violent, just aren’t masculine? **KellyM** Unless I’ve forgotten a post, Catsix is genuinely attempting to learn and understand. Could you start a GD thread so that posters like her could ask questions without getting caught in the crossfire? **Anthracite** I thought that you _had_ found a better substitute for men. But I suppose it’s possible that the Spice channel is not the best resource for learning about lesbianism. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2002, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-brandon-teena/132878/152 "2002-10-24T13:28:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DocCathode \* > \*\*Anthracite I thought that you _had_ found a better substitute for men. But I suppose it’s possible that the Spice channel is not the best resource for learning about lesbianism. \*\* But the Spice Channel is all about women! There’s Baby, Ginger, Posh, Scary, Sporty…and it’s only $9.99 a month! [sub]You know, I was the sixth Spice girl once. Someone here called me “Ugly Spice” back around Xmas…[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2002, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-brandon-teena/132878/153 "2002-10-24T13:31:18Z")
Shodan, you wanted a cite showing evidence of genetic male, with male structures, and a female brain? > [@](#): > > \*\* Brain Dimorphism > > Brain dimorphism is defined as a structural or other observable difference between the brains of males and females. In a 1995 article entitled “A Sex Difference in the Human Brain and its Relation to Transsexuality” published in Nature, J.-N. Zhou, et al. demonstrated an observable difference in certain structures in the hypothalamus of transsexuals males compared to males, females, and homosexual males. (6) They report: > > “The possible psychogenic or biological etiology of transsexuality has been the subject of debate for many years. Here we show that the volume of the central subdivision of the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc), a brain area that is essential for sexual behaviour, is larger in men than in women. A female-sized BSTc was found in male-to-female transsexuals. The size of the BSTc was not influenced by sex hormones in adulthood and was independent of sexual orientation. Our study is the first to show a female brain structure in genetically male transsexuals and supports the hypothesis that gender identity develops as a result of an interaction between the developing brain and sex hormones.” > > D.F. Swaab, one of the authors of the study, commented in the January 1996 issue of Discover magazine that this research “shows that transsexuals are right. Their sex was judged in the wrong way at the moment of birth because people look only to the sex organs and not to the brain.” (7) > > The authors of this study reiterate a common theme in the study of transsexualism: that brain changes can arise due to an alteration in sex hormone levels - precisely the consequence of exposure to endocrine disrupting chemicals. \*\* I’ll now attempt to retrieve the footnotes ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2002, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-brandon-teena/132878/154 "2002-10-24T13:39:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Anthracite \* > \*\* > You know, I was the sixth Spice girl once. Someone here called me “Ugly Spice” back around Xmas… \*\* You sure that wasn’t “Old Spice?” marc ---
**Author:** ![EchoKitty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f4b2a3/32.png) [@EchoKitty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EchoKitty)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2002, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-brandon-teena/132878/155 "2002-10-24T13:57:34Z")
Hmmmm…debating for a couple days whether or not to bring this into the discussion. I think I will. When I was around 15 years old, there was a new kid in our group. He was a bit older than us and very cute (drove a Roadrunner). There was rumor that he was really a girl. This was in 1972. Everyone had long hair. “Paul” had a bit of a mustache (a teenage boy-type mustache). We hung out, as a group of guys and girls, smoking pot, drinking beer, listening to 8-tracks, driving around. A typical friendship. Paul dated a couple of the girls in the group, including me. The other girls in the group fell in love with him. But he always seemed like he was looking for the right girl and never stayed with anyone longer than a month or so. Well, I started seeing him. We had fun just hanging out and talking. We went to the drive-in one night, and we were making out in the car. I started stroking his chest and, there it was…a boob. We both were kind of startled (although I’m pretty certain he knew he had boobs ;)). Turns out Paul’s real name was Kathy. He started crying and asking me not to hate him (which I didn’t)and was afraid the guys were going to find out. We remained friends. I had no urge to punch him out. I mostly felt sorry for him that he had to live a secret life (after all, it was the early 70s – there’s no way he could have come out back then). We all eventually went our separate ways, and I don’t know what ever happened to him. I suppose because I was so young, for a while I did wonder if I was gay (because we had all heard the rumors and I opted to date him anyway), but I’m not. I liked being with him (he always seemed like a guy to me). I learned a lot about myself all those years ago. Just thought I’d be the voice of someone who was actually in the situation we’re all discussing. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2002, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-brandon-teena/132878/156 "2002-10-24T14:40:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DocCathode \* > \*\*Shodan, you wanted a cite showing evidence of genetic male, with male structures, and a female brain? > \ > The size of the BSTc was not influenced by sex hormones in adulthood and was independent of sexual orientation. Our study is the first to show a female brain structure in genetically male transsexuals and supports the hypothesis that gender identity develops as a result of an interaction between the developing brain and sex hormones. > \ > The authors of this study reiterate a common theme in the study of transsexualism: that brain changes can arise due to an alteration in sex hormone levels - precisely the consequence of exposure to endocrine disrupting chemicals. > > \*\* Thanks. Sample size and reproducibility would be of particular interest. So would information on how much BSTc size varies in the general population, how strong the correlation between BSTc size and transsexualism is, and the usual other questions. Also, don’t the second and third statements above imply that female hormone levels would be higher during childhood for transsexuals? Why would that be? Keep in mind, also, that you can dope a genetic male up with female hormones and produce physical changes. **dorkusmalorkus** mentioned increase in breast size and loss of facial hair from decreased testosterone levels. If these changes in brain anatomy alleged in the study are due to increased exposure to female hormones, it would be interesting to know where the increased levels came from - some external source, or some genetic cause. The study that **Sterra** and I disagreed about seemed to show that male genetic component expressed itself even for castrated children. It would be interesting to know why that seemed to happen, but the subjects in your study turned out transsexual. I was also interested in the statement that “The size of the BSTc was … independent of sexual orientation.” I assume this means that the transsexuals were straight, not gay. So did they retain a sexual orientation towards women even after their sex-change operations, or were they straight transvestites? Anyway, thanks for the cite. Is it online somewhere, so I can read it for myself? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2002, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-brandon-teena/132878/157 "2002-10-24T15:10:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shodan \* > \*\* > If you wanted to postulate some future world in which you could not only obtain surgery on one’s genitalia to change a penis to a vagina, but alter all the chromosomes in one’s body from XY to XX, I would consider that to be true sex transformation surgery. Someone who underwent such a procedure would be a “real” woman. \*\* I suppose you consider women with AIS to be men then. I’m sure they’d all be thrilled to hear it. > [@](#): > > \*\* > But neither Eddie Araujo, nor Brandon Teena, nor anyone in this thread (as far as I know) had anything ambiguous in their genetic structure. \*\* I really don’t understand your obsession with genetics. There are so many other things that are involved in making us who we are. I suffer from an endocrine disorder myself, so I know firsthand that hormones are very, very important – far more important than most healthy people realize. As it happens, Brandon Teena’s mother had a difficult pregnancy necessitating a series of hormone injections in the fifth month. Could these have affected her unborn child’s development and in some way contributed to Brandon’s transgenderism? I don’t know, I don’t think anyone could know, but it doesn’t seem like too farfetched of a theory. Now, Brandon Teena was obviously a disturbed individual with a poor home life and a criminal background, and is far from the best example of a healthy transgendered person. However, it is narrowminded and ignorant to attribute his, or anyone’s, transgenderism to psychological problems alone when even our current limited medical understanding of the subject shows that there are so many physical factors that could be involved. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2002, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-brandon-teena/132878/158 "2002-10-24T15:23:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shodan \* > \*\*Also, don’t the second and third statements above imply that female hormone levels would be higher during childhood for transsexuals? Why would that be? > > The study that **Sterra** and I disagreed about seemed to show that male genetic component expressed itself even for castrated children. It would be interesting to know why that seemed to happen, but the subjects in your study turned out transsexual. \*\* The study I cited refers to the development of the brain in utero. I’ve read other studies which conclude that a castrated male(XY, penis and othe structures, male brain) will, despite a lack of testosterone, identify as male. > [@](#): > > \*\* > I was also interested in the statement that “The size of the BSTc was … independent of sexual orientation.” I assume this means that the transsexuals were straight, not gay. So did they retain a sexual orientation towards women even after their sex-change operations, or were they straight transvestites? > \*\* ``` There are many cases of male-to-female transsexuals who are attracted to women. At this point, I always mention Rachel Pollack, a fine author and a self-described "transsexual lesbian". ``` There are also cases of female-to-male transsexuals who are attracted to men. ``` It's important to distinguish between sexual orientation and gender identification. I identify as male. I am attracted to women. I thus consider myself a heterosexual male. Esprix identifies as male. He is attracted to men. Hence the title "Ask The Gay Guy." Anthracite identifies as female. She is attracted to women. She is a lesbian. Rachel Pollack identifies as female. She is attracted to women. She is a transsexual lesbian. ``` This confuses an already confusing topic. I’ll attempt to clarify later. At the moment, the fact that I only slept 4 hours last night is catching up with me. I will continue searching for a site with the full study. As I said, Nature Online has it. But, if you don’t subscribe you can’t read it. ---
**Author:** ![dorkusmalorkusmafia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorkusmalorkusmafia/32/7266_2.png) [@dorkusmalorkusmafia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dorkusmalorkusmafia)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2002, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-brandon-teena/132878/159 "2002-10-24T16:00:20Z")
[qoute]But yes, she is still a woman. She still has her external genitalia (vagina, clitoris, cervix, etc.) Does this affect your argument? [/quote] Doesn’t affect the argument at all. She is a woman because the absence of a vagina doesn’t change that. [qoute]Losing one’s genitalia does not affect one’s genotype. Neither does believing one is “a woman trapped in a man’s body”. [/quote] This doesn’t explain hermaphrodites. I always equated a transgendered individual to a hermaphrodite. They have the physical sexual characteristics of gender A but the entire mental and emotional makeup of gender B. [qoute]…Someone who underwent such a procedure would be a “real” woman.[/qoute] Yes but you still don’t believe this. If you did, the word real would not be in quotation marks. [qoute]And there are people with ambiguous genotypes, as my links mentioned. Such people are truly ambiguous in their gender. [/qoute] Every transgendered person has ambiguous genotypes. They are the gender their mind tells them they are, very similar to the same way you define your gender by what gender you believe you are. Your attitude and speech say that you believe this. There is no way you believe you can change this, even if you could manage to change the chromosomes to the appropriate chromosome for your perceived gender. The presence or absence of your birth genitals doesn’t change this. You are the gender you believe you are as much as a transgendered person is the gender they believe they are. They believe they are not their birth gender as much as you believe you are your birth gender the absence or presence of their birth gender has no relevence to their perceived gender. You even agreed with that totally, 100%. > [@](#): > > ## quote: > > Originally posted by dorkusmalorkusmafia > > Shodan, let’s say for an instant that you were involved in an accident and had your penis and testicles removed leaving some type of gaping hole. Also, the absence of testicles can sometimes lead a man to grow breasts (and lose facial and body hair), let’s assume this is the case with you too. Would you still identify as a man? I can bet you would. > > * * * > > Of course I would. > > I would take testosterone supplements, so I would not grow breasts or lose my facial hair, but I would still not have male genitalia (absent plastic surgery). > > ## quote: > > Originally posted by dorkusmalorkusmafia > > Now, let’s say that your mother or grandmother has had a hysterectomy. If you don’t know, a hysterectomy typically removes the ovaries and uterus of a woman. Do you still consider them women? I bet you do. > > * * * > > As a matter of fact, my mom has. My father the veterinarian, never to be confused with Phil Donahue at his best moments, once referred to it as “the time your mother was spayed”. > > But yes, she is still a woman. She still has her external genitalia (vagina, clitoris, cervix, etc.) Does this affect your argument? ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2002, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-brandon-teena/132878/160 "2002-10-24T16:35:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dorkusmalorkusmafia \* > \*\* > This doesn’t explain hermaphrodites. I always equated a transgendered individual to a hermaphrodite. \*\* You’re either misusing “equate” or “hermaphrodite”. Transgendered individuals and hermaphrodites are subgroups of the category intersexed. Hermaphroditism can be broken down further by type, by specific condition etc. It’s important to use specific terms. > [@](#): > > \*\* They have the physical sexual characteristics of gender A but the entire mental and emotional makeup of gender B. \*\* Again, “physical sexual characteristics” is not a specific term with a precise meaning. Physically we can examine chromosomes, genitalia, internal organs, and secondary sexual characteristics such as breasts, hips etc. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Every transgendered person has ambiguous genotypes. > \*\* [Indigo Montoya]I do not think that means what you think it means[/Indigo Montoya] Genotype means the chromosome pair that influences gender. XX Average Female XY Average Male XXY Kleinfelter’s syndrome-a sterile male with some feminine characteristics(body shape and distribution of fat). X Turner’s syndrome-a sterile female with some masculine traits. Turner’s syndrome is sometimes noted as XO. ``` A transgendered individual may or may not have the genotype matching the initial on their birth certificate. ``` [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-brandon-teena/132878.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-brandon-teena/132878.md?page=9)