# Another climber left to die on Everest. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 27, 2007, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-climber-left-to-die-on-everest/405733 "2007-05-27T22:25:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swallowed_My_Cellphone)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-climber-left-to-die-on-everest/405733/121 "2007-05-29T00:06:34Z")
Hm, interesting. Looks like I may have had it bakcwards. According to **Kimstu** ’s cite, there is a 10.3% death rate for “expeditions” on “all routes”… but for “climbers” it says “1.8%”. I’m a bit confused by that. ETA: Ah, it says 1 in 10 expeditions has a death of one or more climbers. Okay, I’m still confused by the other number. ---
**Author:** ![brownie55](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f14d63/32.png) [@brownie55](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brownie55)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-climber-left-to-die-on-everest/405733/122 "2007-05-29T00:10:05Z")
[QUOTE=Swallowed My Cellphone] Hm, interesting. Looks like I may have had it bakcwards. According to **Kimstu** ’s cite, there is a 10.3% death rate for “expeditions” on “all routes”… but for “climbers” it says “1.8%”. I’m a bit confused by that. ETA: Ah, it says 1 in 10 expeditions has a death of one or more climbers. Okay, I’m still confused by the other number. [/QUOTE] Could it be those that summit vs, those that climb\> Heck, I got nadda. My sample is way to small. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-climber-left-to-die-on-everest/405733/123 "2007-05-29T00:13:26Z")
Yeah, the 1.8% death rate, if it includes all Everest climbers and not just those who attempt the summit, sounds more or less equivalent to the “1 in 50” death rate cited from the “mounteverest” link. 1.8% is about 2 in 100 or 1 in 50. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-climber-left-to-die-on-everest/405733/124 "2007-05-29T00:14:40Z")
[QUOTE=brownie55] i was really talking about attitudes and not numbers. [/QUOTE] I was just trying to find some numbers, and what I got bewildered me. ---
**Author:** ![brownie55](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f14d63/32.png) [@brownie55](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brownie55)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-climber-left-to-die-on-everest/405733/125 "2007-05-29T00:40:54Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] I was just trying to find some numbers, and what I got bewildered me. [/QUOTE] Wow, and i am sorry, the numbers seem to be hijacked. Keep questioning, it’s the soul of these boards. ---
**Author:** ![Omegaman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e480ec/32.png) [@Omegaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omegaman)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-climber-left-to-die-on-everest/405733/126 "2007-05-29T01:26:45Z")
[QUOTE=Boyo Jim] I see the day when Everest will be climbed by escalators in pressurized tubes, with coffee and oxygen available at little “base camp bistros” along the way up. Then you could treat people who collapse on the way up like traffic accident victims. [/QUOTE] Going beyond the fact that people are crazy enough to waste money on something that will only serve to make them feel good for a couple of minutes a day and that this subject was pumped to death the last time some one was left to die on the way to the summit, is it possible that you could be more proud of your self for having climbed a mountain or saved a human life ? I know some jokers around here think life isn’t worth a whole hell of a lot but I couldn’t disagree more. I guess it’s a personal call as to when you cross the threshold of saving someone and possibly sacrificing your self. I’m glad I’ve got my pal Jesus to hold my little hand when the shit gets ugly . Left to my own devices I would probably run away like a scared kid crying all the way. It’s always real nice to see what happens when the rubber meets the road as it were. An escalator would be really nice though. A clear one so you could see the view maybe take some pictures for the family. Yeah, that would be real nice. ---
**Author:** ![Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swallowed_My_Cellphone)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-climber-left-to-die-on-everest/405733/127 "2007-05-29T01:30:52Z")
[QUOTE=Omegaman] is it possible that you could be more proud of your self for having climbed a mountain or saved a human life ? [/QUOTE] Oh, I’d totally use the “I was a HERO who carried a dying climber down Everest!” angle to get laid… Er… I mean to impress my girlfriend. Way, way cooler to be the hero! ---
**Author:** ![Omegaman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e480ec/32.png) [@Omegaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omegaman)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-climber-left-to-die-on-everest/405733/128 "2007-05-29T01:34:36Z")
[QUOTE=Swallowed My Cellphone] Oh, I’d totally use the “I was a HERO who carried a dying climber down Everest!” angle to get laid… Er… I mean to impress my girlfriend. Way, way cooler to be the hero! [/QUOTE] Don’t worry you’ll get old and tired some day too. And married. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-climber-left-to-die-on-everest/405733/129 "2007-05-29T01:35:40Z")
[QUOTE=Swallowed My Cellphone] Oh, I’d totally use the “I was a HERO who carried a dying climber down Everest!” angle to get laid… Er… I mean to impress my girlfriend. Way, way cooler to be the hero! [/QUOTE] sure to be better than “my boyfriend climbed Everest & all I got was this lousy t-shirt” ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-climber-left-to-die-on-everest/405733/130 "2007-05-29T01:45:06Z")
I think we would all find [The Parable of the Sadhu](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10167597&dopt=Abstract) very interesting. > [@](#): > > When does a group have responsibility for the well-being of an individual? … Those are the questions Bowen McCoy wanted readers to explore in this HBR Classic, first published in September-October 1983. In 1982, McCoy spent several months hiking through Nepal. Midway through the difficult trek, as he and several others were preparing to attain the highest point of their climb, they encountered the body of an Indian holy man, or sadhu. … A few members of the group broke off to help move the sadhu down toward a village two days’ journey away, but they soon left him in order to continue their way up the slope. What happened to the sadhu? In his retrospective commentary, McCoy notes that he never learned the answer to that question. Instead, the sadhu’s story only raises more questions. On the Himalayan slope, a collection of individuals was unprepared for a sudden dilemma. They all “did their bit,” but the group was not organized enough to take ultimate responsibility for a life. How, asks McCoy in a broader context, do we prepare our organizations and institutions so they will respond appropriately to ethical crises? ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-climber-left-to-die-on-everest/405733/131 "2007-05-29T02:19:56Z")
I’ve got one older than that. Cain: Am I my brother’s keeper? God: You bet your sweet ass you are. (Super Duper New Revised International Version) ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-climber-left-to-die-on-everest/405733/132 "2007-05-29T02:56:47Z")
Okay, I could be completely wrong about this, so by all means correct me if I am. Could this actually be a unique situation? What I gather is that the conditions on Everest are so brutal that after a while, people just aren’t in their right mind, no matter what their “right mind” is under normal conditions. The combination of high altitude, low temperature and low oxygen may be clouding everyone’s judgment even before their vitals fall to a dangerous level. I mean, Krakauer said on the first page of **Into Thin Air** that by the time he reached the summit, he was basically reduced to “Top of the world that’s Tibet BFD I need oxygen…Oh man, people are coming UP?! And I have to STAY HERE?!” Don’t know if he’s typical, of course, but that sounds like someone who’s lost perspective on most everything. I mean, I can think of two other sports where people have to work together under rough conditions (not as rough as Everest, though) with the possibility that one or more of them might die: sailing, and white-water rafting. But you don’t seem to hear much about amateur sailors or white-water enthusiasts leaving a team member to die. Mostly climbers, and mostly on Everest. So perhaps Everest is simply not comparable to other situations. The same guy who would risk his own life to save his buddy on the Colorado River might, on Everest, be honestly convinced that the other same guy really wasn’t hurting that bad whatever I gotta get to the next station. Or I could be wrong. As I said. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-climber-left-to-die-on-everest/405733/133 "2007-05-29T03:32:07Z")
[QUOTE=Rilchiam] Okay, I could be completely wrong about this, so by all means correct me if I am. Could this actually be a unique situation? What I gather is that the conditions on Everest are so brutal that after a while, people just aren’t in their right mind, no matter what their “right mind” is under normal conditions. The combination of high altitude, low temperature and low oxygen may be clouding everyone’s judgment even before their vitals fall to a dangerous level. I mean, Krakauer said on the first page of **Into Thin Air** that by the time he reached the summit, he was basically reduced to “Top of the world that’s Tibet BFD I need oxygen…Oh man, people are coming UP?! And I have to STAY HERE?!” Don’t know if he’s typical, of course, but that sounds like someone who’s lost perspective on most everything. I mean, I can think of two other sports where people have to work together under rough conditions (not as rough as Everest, though) with the possibility that one or more of them might die: sailing, and white-water rafting. But you don’t seem to hear much about amateur sailors or white-water enthusiasts leaving a team member to die. Mostly climbers, and mostly on Everest. So perhaps Everest is simply not comparable to other situations. The same guy who would risk his own life to save his buddy on the Colorado River might, on Everest, be honestly convinced that the other same guy really wasn’t hurting that bad whatever I gotta get to the next station. Or I could be wrong. As I said. [/QUOTE] Maybe, but keep in mind that another group of climbers, who were already trashed from having summited, actually had the faculties to effect a rescue. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-climber-left-to-die-on-everest/405733/134 "2007-05-29T04:00:11Z")
[QUOTE=Rilchiam] I mean, I can think of two other sports where people have to work together under rough conditions (not as rough as Everest, though) with the possibility that one or more of them might die: sailing, and white-water rafting. But you don’t seem to hear much about amateur sailors or white-water enthusiasts leaving a team member to die. Mostly climbers, and mostly on Everest. [/QUOTE] Sailors sometimes face a similar dilemma. I have heard instances of a crewmember going overboard in extreme conditions, leaving the other crew with the options of either trying to turn around and beat into the conditions to find the lost crew, or accepting they are gone and sailing on. Turning around being extremely difficult, highly dangerous to the yacht as a whole and unlikely to be successful, a dilemma is created. I have heard of racing yacht crews who have agreed beforehand that they will not turn back if someone goes o/b in such conditions. ---
**Author:** ![coffeecat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coffeecat/32/3405_2.png) [@coffeecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coffeecat)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-climber-left-to-die-on-everest/405733/135 "2007-05-29T10:35:47Z")
I’ve never climbed a mountain in my life, but this radical objectivist school of mountaineering seems fucked in a non-moral sense. Shared danger normally brings people closer together–cops, soldiers, fire fighters stand by each other no matter what, because each entrusts their life to their comrades and knows they can either work together or die alone. Abandoning someone because it’s inconvenient to help–can someone who does that even be a good mountain climber? I wonder if the ones who do that aren’t those Mt. Everest tourists with more money than experience or skill. ---
**Author:** ![Kokopilau](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Kokopilau](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kokopilau)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-climber-left-to-die-on-everest/405733/136 "2007-05-29T13:27:54Z")
People keep saying that it’s deadlier to attempt a rescue than to leave a stranded climber be. I wonder what the death rates are for those who attempt to make a rescue of a stranded climber vs. those stranded climbers themselves are, and how many attempts ended in the deaths of the rescuers vs. how many resulted in a successful rescue of a stranded climber with no deaths. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-climber-left-to-die-on-everest/405733/137 "2007-05-29T15:13:50Z")
Exactly. It seems that climbers with absolutely no medical training are making decisions related to the survivability of climbers on the mountain. Not only that, wild claims of the dangers of rescue are being made without any sort of evidence to back them up. It seems to have become almost axiomatic within the Everest climbing community that rescue attempts are deadly affairs, which is ridiculous, given the story in the OP. The last abandoned climber story, where Hilary weighed in, had a doctor claim that the casualty may have nearly fully recovered if he had been given oxygen by any one of the dozens of teams that trudged past him. > [@](#): > > Could this actually be a unique situation? What I gather is that the conditions on Everest are so brutal that after a while, people just aren’t in their right mind, no matter what their “right mind” is under normal conditions. I’m not convinced by this at all. Soldiers coming under intense enemy fire regularly go back to help fallen comrades. Rather, I think Everest seems to attract the scum of the earth. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-climber-left-to-die-on-everest/405733/138 "2007-05-29T16:36:05Z")
1. Climbing Everest is a fun, but dangerous game. It is possible that you will die in your attempt to summit. This is a game for grown-ups. 2. Many people who play this game have only a single goal in mind: Summiting. They do not want to be distracted from this goal by helping others who are floundering. They came uninterested in your goals or your survival. In return they may not expect others to help them should they flounder, even where the consequence of floundering is death. 3. You are not required to embrace this philosophy personally. You must, however, understand that playing this game is optional and it is open to people whose priorities are not yours. Your personal code of ranking charity toward those in need above summiting is not everyone else’s code. Choose not to play if you do not like the inability to enforce your code on others. 4. You are free to express outrage at such a code. Others are free to express outrage that any society allows anyone to voluntarily participate in any dangerous (but optional) fun game. However many climbers who have such a code do not place the highest value on living longer. Their highest value is achieving a goal at the potential expense of their own life. Because they are willing to spend their own life in pursuit of that goal, they may be unwilling to relinquish that goal to save your life. 5. You may choose to form a team with values similar to your own. The rules of that team apply only to that team, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-climber-left-to-die-on-everest/405733/139 "2007-05-29T17:01:47Z")
Deciding to abandon all ethical principles is not a “code,” it’s just selfishness. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-climber-left-to-die-on-everest/405733/140 "2007-05-29T17:07:06Z")
[QUOTE=Chief Pedant] 1. Climbing Everest is a fun, but dangerous game. It is possible that you will die in your attempt to summit. This is a game for grown-ups. 2. Many people who play this game have only a single goal in mind: Summiting. They do not want to be distracted from this goal by helping others who are floundering. They came uninterested in your goals or your survival. In return they may not expect others to help them should they flounder, even where the consequence of floundering is death. 3. You are not required to embrace this philosophy personally. You must, however, understand that playing this game is optional and it is open to people whose priorities are not yours. Your personal code of ranking charity toward those in need above summiting is not everyone else’s code. Choose not to play if you do not like the inability to enforce your code on others. 4. You are free to express outrage at such a code. Others are free to express outrage that any society allows anyone to voluntarily participate in any dangerous (but optional) fun game. However many climbers who have such a code do not place the highest value on living longer. Their highest value is achieving a goal at the potential expense of their own life. Because they are willing to spend their own life in pursuit of that goal, they may be unwilling to relinquish that goal to save your life. 5. You may choose to form a team with values similar to your own. The rules of that team apply only to that team, of course. [/QUOTE] I can sum that up for you: Warning: Mountain may contain sociopaths. Climb at your own risk. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-climber-left-to-die-on-everest/405733.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-climber-left-to-die-on-everest/405733.md?page=8)