# Another Critical Race Theory thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 4, 2021, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389 "2021-05-04T19:44:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2021, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389/202 "2021-05-16T12:55:53Z")
Ibrim X. Kendi writes pretty extensively about the history of the idea of race, tracing its formation (although not its name) to Portuguese biographer [Gomes de Zurara](https://lithub.com/ibram-x-kendi-how-racism-relies-on-arbitrary-hierarchies/), in his efforts to curry favor with Prince Henry the Navigator and his campaign to disrupt the slave trade by sailing Portuguese ships to subsaharan Africa to trade exclusively in people captured in that region. People certainly recognized locals and foreigners before this slave trade change, but nothing I’ve read from pior to this time suggests a wide-ranging ideology that identifies people as significantly better or worse based on skin color. If anyone has any records of such ideas prior to Zurara, I’d be interested to see it. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2021, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389/203 "2021-05-16T13:52:32Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It looked like a mix, to me, of useful and accurate things and nonsense. I don’t know if the nonsense is an improper understanding of what was taught or that what was taught was nonsense. Makes it hard to debate, doesn’t it? It’s difficult to pin down what CRT actually is, and whether the various diversity curriculums and corporate trainings are an accurate reflection of it or not, and whether or not that matters if it’s the specific instances that people are objecting to. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t understand what you’re saying. I asked you questions, but you didn’t answer. If you answer these questions and explain what you mean by race, then maybe I’ll be able to understand what you’re saying and respond. I think at it’s most basic, the idea of race is that there are groups of people who are more closely related to each other than to others. So that could be at the level of a country, eg that British people are more closely related to each other than to Finns, or it could be at a continental level, that British people are more closely related to Finns than to eg people from Korea. (But really meaning in each case people whose ancestors were from those regions.) As far as I know there is nothing unscientific about this, with the proviso that it doesn’t necessarily work the same way in Africa, since humans evolved there and there is more genetic diversity present. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2021, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389/204 "2021-05-16T14:04:52Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Makes it hard to debate, doesn’t it? It’s difficult to pin down what CRT actually is, and whether the various diversity curriculums and corporate trainings are an accurate reflection of it or not, and whether or not that matters if it’s the specific instances that people are objecting to. I’ve made many statements about my understanding of CRT, and still many (including you) would prefer to debate the ideas others (and usually those who hate it) have about CRT rather than the participants in this thread. I’d prefer if folks would read what I said about CRT and respond to that. > [@](#): > > I think at it’s most basic, the idea of race is that there are groups of people who are more closely related to each other than to others. So that could be at the level of a country, eg that British people are more closely related to each other than to Finns, or it could be at a continental level, that British people are more closely related to Finns than to eg people from Korea. (But really meaning in each case people whose ancestors were from those regions.) > > As far as I know there is nothing unscientific about this, with the proviso that it doesn’t necessarily work the same way in Africa, since humans evolved there and there is more genetic diversity present. This is not how the concept of race is used in most modern contexts – and certainly not the vast majority of US contexts, which is what I’m most familiar with. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2021, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389/205 "2021-05-16T14:19:28Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > It is pretty relevant when we are told racism is the only possible or remotely plausible explanation for group differences. Well, that shows that you did not read the tread. Nor the paper from the CRT researchers looking at Rwanda. And your last comments show also that you ignored what Asians and Jewish researchers that use CRT are telling us. You are grossly ignoring indeed that right now we do have people in power that are telling minorities what they do not have the freedom to research what they see as important. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2021, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389/206 "2021-05-16T14:23:42Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This is not how the concept of race is used in most modern contexts – and certainly not the vast majority of US contexts, which is what I’m most familiar with. And CRT is nothing if not a product of US culture. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2021, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389/207 "2021-05-16T14:25:59Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > And CRT is nothing if not a product of US culture. As the research paper from Rwanda showed, you don’t know what you are talking about still. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2021, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389/208 "2021-05-16T14:30:28Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Makes it hard to debate, doesn’t it? It’s difficult to pin down what CRT actually is, and whether the various diversity curriculums and corporate trainings are an accurate reflection of it or not, and whether or not that matters if it’s the specific instances that people are objecting to. Which points to a bigger issue: maybe, if it’s hard to pin down, we shouldn’t spend so much time worrying about it. Certainly it’s not something I’ve heard a lot of leftists obsessing over in nearly the way I hear conservatives obsessing over it. Even having read some Kendi, I’m not 100% sure I could state what the core “beliefs” of CRT are, and what claims are his alone. Rather than worrying about what this fairly academic theory says, we should look instead what _individuals_ and _organizations_ have to say about racism. We can certainly evaluate individual claims and claimants. Personally, Robin diAngelo gets up my nose. I don’t care for her stuff. Ibrim X. Kendi is informative and careful in what he writes, but there are some things he writes that give me pause. When it comes to culturally responsive teaching, Zaretta Hammond is pretty insightful. The 1619 project is chock full of excellent information. And so on. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2021, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389/209 "2021-05-16T14:42:10Z")
Not interested in this weird point-scoring or whatever. I’ve said a lot about CRT; you’ve responded to very little of it – appears to me you’re just trying to poke holes rather than engage. If you want to engage, you could start with this post: [Another Critical Race Theory thread - #23 by iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389/23) ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2021, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389/210 "2021-05-16T15:00:43Z")
It is like I said earlier, CRT is a framework, we should look at individual papers to check if the research on a specific one is valid… …Just as anyone should do with any research on any field. Some researchers are better than others. What is really appalling is to see right-wingers like Tucker Carlson and Republican governors spewing statements and resolutions that can easily come from a slaver plantation owner. > **[Chapter VI](https://www.cliffsnotes.com/literature/n/narrative-of-the-life-of-frederick-douglass-an-american-slave/summary-and-analysis/chapter-vi)** > > Summary > Mrs. Sophia Auld was unlike any white person Douglass had met before because she had "the kindest heart and finest feelings." She had never owned a slav > [Frederick] Douglass wants to convince his white readers in the North and South that slavery is bad on moral, legal, religious, and economic grounds. Here, Douglass shows us how slavery corrupts the morality of whites: Initially, Mrs. Sophia Auld was a kind and industrious person, who treated Douglass like a genuine human being because prior to meeting Douglass, she had never owned a slave. In the beginning, Sophia Auld did not understand that teaching Douglass to read and write would free his mind, a first step toward physical freedom. But after her husband explained to her that freeing Douglass’ mind could lead her to losing her property (that is, Douglass himself), she changed her attitude. When passing misguided resolutions to prohibit the use or teaching of CRT they do it with a very similar reason: to tell researchers not to look to help minorities, and to specially tell minorities who are researchers to not even attempt to free their minds. It is important to notice that because it is the caricature of CRT the one that they are attempting to ban in academia, their efforts are then not targeting CRT really, but any other research that gets closer into investigating racial injustice. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2021, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389/211 "2021-05-16T15:52:44Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > the idea of race is that there are groups of people who are more closely related to each other than to others No. As Wiki says " there is a broad scientific agreement that essentialist and typological conceptions of race are untenable" Race is a social construct - it is not a valid biological concept. And not just in Africa, but globally. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2021, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389/212 "2021-05-16T15:54:38Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > When passing misguided resolutions to prohibit the use or teaching of CRT they do it with a very similar reason: to tell researchers not to look to help minorities, and to specially tell minorities who are researchers to not even attempt to free their minds. It is important to notice that because it is the caricature of CRT the one that they are attempting to ban in academia, their efforts are then not targeting CRT really, but any other research that gets closer into investigating racial injustice. Now this is an interesting point that I don’t think I’ve seen addressed. Trump had an EO ‘banning CRT’ and some states are trying to prevent it being taught in public schools, but none of these things ban CRT by name, instead they ban teaching ideas like: > [@](#): > > (1) one race or sex is inherently superior to another race or sex; (2) the United States is fundamentally racist or sexist; (3) an individual, by virtue of his or her race or sex, is inherently racist, sexist, or oppressive, whether consciously or unconsciously; (4) an individual should be discriminated against or receive adverse treatment solely or partly because of his or her race or sex; (5) members of one race or sex cannot and should not attempt to treat others without respect to race or sex; (6) an individual’s moral character is necessarily determined by his or her race or sex; (7) an individual, by virtue of his or her race or sex, bears responsibility for actions committed in the past by other members of the same race or sex; (8) any individual should feel discomfort, guilt, anguish, or any other form of psychological distress on account of his or her race or sex; or (9) meritocracy or traits such as a hard work ethic are racist or sexist, or were created by a particular race to oppress another race. (From Trump’s EO). Does banning teaching these in effect ban teaching CRT or not? Are some of these concepts important/necessary parts of it? ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2021, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389/213 "2021-05-16T16:09:51Z")
Since you have seem to have omitted the most problematic parts from your definition, I’m still not sure how much point there is debating it. I already said I think there is a biological basis to race, though I grant it may only have a tangential relationship to categories used by eg the US census. But that doesn’t stop your favourite powerful white men from using it as a basis to divide people, or mean that institutional racism doesn’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2021, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389/214 "2021-05-16T16:11:43Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Does banning teaching these in effect ban teaching CRT or not? Are some of these concepts important/necessary parts of it? It always depends on who is enforcing the law. If there were people looking to reduce the societal effects of discrimination in power, then there should be less of a problem, but when one got (In Arizona) racist and bigoted guys like Sheriff Joe Arpaio, you bet they interpret/ed the law as they see/saw it. The end result was/is more discrimination, not less. What should not be forgotten: the efforts from the ones that prejudge others and are in power are discriminating not only against minorities, but they are also discriminating against the the ones in academia by telling them that they are not free to study what they see as important. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2021, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389/215 "2021-05-16T16:13:10Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Since you have seem to have omitted the most problematic parts from your definition, I’m still not sure how much point there is debating it. I already said I think there is a biological basis to race, though I grant it may only have a tangential relationship to categories used by eg the US census. > > But that doesn’t stop your favourite powerful white men from using it as a basis to divide people, or mean that institutional racism doesn’t exist. So you agree with the points in my definition? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2021, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389/216 "2021-05-16T16:15:36Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > I already said I think there is a biological basis to race [Actual scientists say no](https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/the-concept-of-race-is-a-lie/). ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2021, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389/217 "2021-05-16T16:20:06Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > So you agree with the points in my definition? Apart from the one I just disagreed with, I think they are plausible. But I don’t know enough to say they are correct, or particularly how widespread the effects are and what other issues might be in play. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2021, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389/218 "2021-05-16T16:21:10Z")
Your definition of race seems to be massively different from the standard American usage (and my assumption for CRT), so it seems irrelevant to this discussion. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2021, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389/219 "2021-05-16T16:24:02Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > It always depends on who is enforcing the law. If there were people looking to reduce the societal effects of discrimination in power, then there should be less of a problem, but when one got (In Arizona) racist and bigoted guys like Sheriff Joe Arpaio, you bet they interpret/ed the law as they see/saw it. The end result was/is more discrimination, not less. My question isn’t really about how the law is enforced, but whether these dubious-sounding concepts are a part of CRT, or at least a part of most CRT-influenced lessons/trainings? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2021, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389/220 "2021-05-16T16:30:47Z")
The reason you are not interested is telling. One also wonders why is that you continue to avoid dealing with the part you don’t quote and that was also avoided earlier: The efforts from the ones that prejudge others and are in power are discriminating not only against minorities, but **they are also discriminating against the minorities in academia by telling them that they are not free to study what they see as important.** > **[Idaho governor signs bill to ban critical race theory from being taught in...](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/may/06/idaho-critical-race-theory)** > > Theory states that racism is embedded in US history and modern American law, and that legal institutions are inherently racist ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2021, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389/221 "2021-05-16T16:30:54Z")
Are any of the concepts listed in my [earlier post](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389/212) part of your conception of CRT? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389.md?page=12)