# Another Critical Race Theory thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 4, 2021, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389 "2021-05-04T19:44:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 29
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2021, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389/565 "2021-05-21T18:14:51Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I’m not sure what you two think you’re demonstrating by pointing that out. “Some things have racist implications, and other things do not, depending on the specifics” is a pretty baseline summary of CRT, actually. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2021, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389/566 "2021-05-21T18:47:41Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Yes, if you change the hypothetical to remove the racist element, then the hypothetical no longer describes a racist situation. I think what I’m pointing out with my hypothetical is that removing an overtly racist element may still leave you with a racially biased outcome. What, in your opinion, is interesting in contemplating a racially biased outcome with a front loaded racist element? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2021, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389/567 "2021-05-21T18:51:57Z")
What’s the racially biased outcome in your altered hypothetical? ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2021, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389/568 "2021-05-21T18:55:49Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Yes, if you change the hypothetical to remove the racist element, then the hypothetical no longer describes a racist situation. > > I’m not sure what you two think you’re demonstrating by pointing that out. It’s the question of whether having a different impact on different races in itself makes a policy wrong. Since the two examples given also seem to disadvantage poor people, we would probably object to them regardless of the racial element. So let me make my own hypothetical. The company with the parking policy has two car parks, and each has a separate entrance. Most of the employees live in one of two neighbourhoods that lie in different directions. The front car park is easy to reach from both neighbourhoods, but the entrance to the side car park is much more difficult to get to from one of them, due to a complicated and busy one way system. Therefore employees living in this neighbourhood will be worse off under the new rule. Is the parking policy a problem, and should it be changed if: a) most of the black employees happen to live in one neighbourhood and most of the white ones in the other (and does it matter which way round?) b) the two neighbourhoods have a fairly even mixture of employees of all races ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2021, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389/569 "2021-05-21T18:58:28Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > What’s the racially biased outcome in your altered hypothetical? Rank and file workers have their cars vandalized more than executive staff. If we’re to focus on the minority population in both groups, those who are rank and file experience a disproportionate amount of suffering; something which is generally true, we can all agree, in society at large. So the questions is: should the executives parking policy include this CRT framework in it’s governance/administration of this parking policy? Note that I’ve tried to simplify the built in bias of a non-representative executive class with my tweak of the hypothetical as originally presented. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2021, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389/570 "2021-05-21T19:01:47Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Rank and file workers have their cars vandalized more than executive staff. But if the management has the same racial profile as the staff, this isn’t a _racially_ biased outcome. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2021, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389/571 "2021-05-21T19:05:53Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > But if the management has the same racial profile as the staff, this isn’t a _racially_ biased outcome. I don’t understand. Isn’t the goal of CRT to examine policies for racist or anti-racist outcomes, regardless of intent? Sure, the executives didn’t set out with the intention to harm the production line workers, but their policy might still be viewed, using the CRT lens, as contributing to existing racial bias. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2021, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389/572 "2021-05-21T19:08:18Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Isn’t the goal of CRT to examine policies for racist or anti-racist outcomes, regardless of intent? Sure, the executives didn’t set out with the intention to harm the production line workers, but their policy might still be viewed, using the CRT lens, as contributing to existing racial bias. I mean, that’s pretty much it. What is it that you say that you don’t understand? Are you thinking that CRT means that all policies contribute to existing racial biases, even if they don’t? That’s the only way that your statements make sense along with your declaration of not understanding. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2021, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389/573 "2021-05-21T19:17:01Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I mean, that’s pretty much it. What is it that you say that you don’t understand? So you agree with **Miller** in that the only thing that determines whether the disproportionate suffering experienced by the production line employees is a result of racial bias is whether or not the composition of management is racially representative? > [@k9bfriender](#): > > Are you thinking that CRT means that all policies contribute to existing racial biases, even if they don’t? That’s the only way that your statements make sense along with your declaration of not understanding. Isn’t that what Kendi is saying and what we’re talking about?: > [@Kendi](#): > > A racist policy is any measure that produces or sustains racial inequity between racial groups. An antiracist policy is any measure that produces or sustains racial equity between racial groups. By policy, I mean written and unwritten laws, rules, procedures, processes, regulations, and guidelines that govern people. **There is no such thing as a nonracist or race-neutral policy.** Every policy in every institution in every community in every nation is producing or sustaining either racial inequity or equity between racial groups. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2021, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389/574 "2021-05-21T19:17:26Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I don’t understand. Isn’t the goal of CRT to examine policies for racist or anti-racist outcomes, regardless of intent? Right. And if we examine your altered hypothetical through a CRT lens, we can see that there’s no racial disparity in the results of the parking lot policy, therefore there’s no reason to challenge the policy on racial grounds. Which, of course, does not rule out challenging the policy on other grounds. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2021, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389/575 "2021-05-21T19:18:41Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Right. And if we examine your altered hypothetical through a CRT lens, we can see that there’s no racial disparity in the results of the parking lot policy, therefore there’s no reason to challenge the policy on racial grounds. > > Which, of course, does not rule out challenging the policy on other grounds. Based on your understanding and application of CRT or on Kendi’s? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2021, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389/576 "2021-05-21T19:19:47Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > So you agree with **Miller** in that the only thing that determines whether the disproportionate suffering experienced by the production line employees is a result of racial bias is whether or not the composition of management is racially representative? I never said anything like that. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2021, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389/577 "2021-05-21T19:20:56Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I never said anything like that. Fair enough. I apologize for misrepresenting what you said. Can you show me what I got wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2021, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389/578 "2021-05-21T19:22:21Z")
I’m not sure I can. I have no idea how you got that from anything I’ve written here. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2021, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389/579 "2021-05-21T19:26:06Z")
I’m trying to reconcile Kendi’s interpretation of CRT and your conclusion which states that there is ‘no racial disparity as a result of the parking policy’. Do you think Kendi would agree with your conclusion? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2021, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389/580 "2021-05-21T19:41:06Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > So you agree with **Miller** in that the only thing that determines whether the disproportionate suffering experienced by the production line employees is a result of racial bias is whether or not the composition of management is racially representative? “So you agree”… is almost always followed by something that no one would agree with… You overgeneralized there from a specific policy to pretty much everything in their lives, and that’s not within the scope here. As to this specific policy, if the management and exec is of the _exact_ same demographics as the employees, then this specific policy of having employees park in the less guarded lot does not produce racially biased outcomes. So, yes, in some very specific and unlikely scenario, you have found a way to show that this one policy does not have a racially biased outcome. That’s both trivial and meaningless. > [@QuickSilver](#): > > Isn’t that what Kendi is saying and what we’re talking about?: Kendi is talking about the real world, not some modified hypothetical where you have managed to philosophically balance an infinite number of angels on the head of a pin. And in the real world, there is not very likely to be a policy that does not contribute either to equality or inequality. The real world just doesn’t have that perfect balance that you would need for a policy to actually be _neutral_. As I said earlier, it’s likely that many policies are _close enough_ to neutral that it’s not as worthwhile to examine them to see which side of the knife’s edge is favored as those that contribute much more to inequality. But that still doesn’t mean that they are actually neutral. ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2021, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389/581 "2021-05-21T19:49:47Z")
Racism is the predominant thing that crt is focused on these days. I don’t think anyone other than you disagrees with this. The fact that you can apply some crt principles to other dominant groups like the han chinese in china doesn’t make it any less about racism here in the usa. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > what the powerful politicians from the right (who are virtually all white) are doing about minority researchers involved in CRT > [@GIGObuster](#): > > That minority researchers and academics are the ones that will be affected more is not important for the critics of CRT. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > What is important to me is that it shows how when politicians from the right claim to support minorities > [@GIGObuster](#): > > What is going on with the anti-intellectual efforts against minority researchers When if comes to the woke sjw stuff I don’t think the “powerful politicians” care if the crt researchers are white or minority. Its all just stupid woke sjw crap to them. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2021, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389/582 "2021-05-21T19:54:13Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > As to this specific policy, if the management and exec is of the _exact_ same demographics as the employees, then this specific policy of having employees park in the less guarded lot does not produce racially biased outcomes. Does the rightness or wrongness of the policy depend on it having racially biased outcomes, though? It’s wrong for the management to make employees park in the shitty lot, but if a few of the top guys leave and they hire black managers to replace them, then it becomes okay? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2021, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389/583 "2021-05-21T19:57:26Z")
Wouldn’t a simple solution be to hire a security guard for the crappy lot, and put up some lights and cameras too. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2021, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389/584 "2021-05-21T19:58:22Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > As to this specific policy, if the management and exec is of the _exact_ same demographics as the employees, then this specific policy of having employees park in the less guarded lot does not produce racially biased outcomes. Do you accept the premise as laid out by Kendi that policies have either racist or anti-racist outcomes? If so, do you still posit that this policy does not produce racially biased outcomes? Furthermore, what population are you using for context to reach that conclusion? Just the set of all corporate employees in both parking lots? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389.md?page=28) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389.md?page=30)