# Another Critical Race Theory thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 4, 2021, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389 "2021-05-04T19:44:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 35
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2021, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389/685 "2021-05-24T16:14:40Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > _An_ exception proves a rule. A _pile_ of them makes the rule a joke. A pile of exception that account for a tiny percentage of asian americans is still an exception to the rule. But if it makes things clearer, when i say asian americans i am talking about the 97% not the 3%. tail wagging the dog indeed. African immigrants make up a larger percentage of the black population than your examples. I could easily come up with a dozen ethnicites of black people that have higher educational achievement and income than the median white american and it wouldn’t undermine the more general statements about black people. Noone quibbles about the need for removing discrimination in education against blacks by pointing ot these tiny slivers of the black population for which some of these statement are not true. The quibbling only comes when we talk about asians. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2021, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389/686 "2021-05-24T16:40:52Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > The necessary historical context is also that asians were already a model minority. A model for Yellow Peril and laundry workers, maybe…because that was the pre-50s image of Asians, especially Chinese, in America. > [@damuriajashi](#): > > Noone quibbles about the need for removing discrimination in education against blacks by pointing ot these tiny slivers of the black population for which some of these statement are not true. The quibbling only comes when we talk about asians. Told you, not going to talk about education specifically, as per mod instructions. Happy to talk about the myth of the model minority in generalities, but as soon as your bugbear steps out of its hole, I’m done talking to you. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2021, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389/687 "2021-05-24T16:51:25Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Why does it have to be one or the other? I’m tired of people presenting some oversimplified viewpoint and demanding we ignore all the factors that don’t fit their theory. Like the example made of the theory of Punctuated Equilibrium on how it modifies the general theory of evolution, some factors are there that do modify the CRT framework. And again, finding that one factor could be not as crucial, does not mean that the CRT framework should be dismissed. Again, what counts more are the published science and law journals. That of course are for some reason harder to check (it is realy easier now in the internet era). Looks like it is easier to continue to rely on clueless right wing sources of information. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2021, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389/688 "2021-05-24T17:06:26Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Like the example made of the theory of Punctuated Equilibrium modifying the general theory of evolution, some factors are there that do modify the CRT framework. And again, finding that one factor could be not as crucial, does not mean that the CRT framework should be dismissed. I don’t know who you think you are arguing with here. No one said any such thing, and it has no relevance to the post you replied to. Why don’t you try addressing what other people are actually saying? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2021, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389/689 "2021-05-24T17:25:49Z")
That came from you thinking that you were correct about interest-convergence (it still needs more evidence that just one paper to dismiss it) So it was then why the metaphor of Punctuated Equilibrium was mentioned regarding evolution, it is an example of how things in science take place. That even if one could dismiss a factor like interest convergence, it does not lead one to dismiss CRT altogether. ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2021, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389/690 "2021-05-24T17:31:23Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > A model for Yellow Peril and laundry workers, maybe…because that was the pre-50s image of Asians, especially Chinese, in America. And they were doing well in school in the 1950s. They had above average income in the 1950s. White people didn’t create asian success. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Told you, not going to talk about education specifically, as per mod instructions. > > Happy to talk about the myth of the model minority in generalities, but as soon as your bugbear steps out of its hole, I’m done talking to you. Wait, I can’t say the word education? That’s kind of a weird mod instruction. OK. I have taken it to ATMB. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2021, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389/691 "2021-05-24T17:36:21Z")
_Education_, sure. Education _admissions_, naah, too close to the line for me to let you drag me there, thanks but no thanks… ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2021, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389/692 "2021-05-24T19:35:10Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Why does it have to be one or the other? That’s literally what I say when I say, "If you’re analyzing student success **without bringing in the historical context** , if you’re just like, “THIS GROUP HAS A BETTER CULTURE,” I’m gonna suspect you have a reason for the elision. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2021, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389/693 "2021-05-24T19:50:05Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > That came from you thinking that you were correct about interest-convergence Does no one on this forum have any reading comprehension? I never even gave an opinion on interest convergence! I said I wanted to see more evidence, and wondered if CRT was the kind of theory that cannot be refuted because it can accommodate/explain away any contradictory evidence. I was pleased to see the paper because it confirmed that these were reasonable and relevant questions to ask, not because it gave any particular answer. Do you understand the difference? ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2021, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389/694 "2021-05-24T20:02:12Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > That’s literally what I say when I say, "If you’re analyzing student success **without bringing in the historical context** , if you’re just like, “THIS GROUP HAS A BETTER CULTURE,” I’m gonna suspect you have a reason for the elision. And yet much earlier in the thread you posted this: > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > **That any material difference between racial group averages can only be attributable to racism.** I would say that you have a **very** high hill to climb to suggest an alternative diagnosis for such differences. The fact that races are social constructs suggests that disparities will be due to social differences; and our society created these constructs as part of a hierarchical structure to justify extremely racist policies. When folks create an arbitrary hierarchy and use it to impose injustice, and then one group has different outcomes, it’s sooooooper likely that those different outcomes are due to that arbitrary, unjust hierarchy that got created. That certainly didn’t suggest to me that you are open to a nuanced view where several factors can influence success. In fact, it strongly suggests that you are unwilling to consider _any_ factors other than racism. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2021, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389/695 "2021-05-24T20:04:49Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > That certainly didn’t suggest to me that you are open to a nuanced view where several factors can influence success. In fact, it strongly suggests that you are unwilling to consider _any_ factors other than racism. It’s a very high hill to climb != untrue. If you want to play gotcha, knock yourself out, but at least try to represent what you’re gotcha-ing about accurately. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2021, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389/696 "2021-05-24T20:10:22Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > It’s a very high hill to climb != untrue. If you want to play gotcha, knock yourself out, but at least try to represent what you’re gotcha-ing about accurately. I didn’t say ‘untrue’ either. It’s not a gotcha to point out that your claimed attitude now does not appear to match your earlier post. If you really believe multiple factors play a role, why would it be such a high hill to climb to convince you of one of them? ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2021, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389/697 "2021-05-24T20:14:59Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > A pile of exception that account for a tiny percentage of asian americans is still an exception to the rule. But if it makes things clearer, when i say asian americans i am talking about the 97% not the 3%. tail wagging the dog indeed. Perhaps what these exceptions show is that success does not really correlate with socially constructed racial groups, but rather with ethnic groups who share a history and culture, and arrived in the US at different times via different routes. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2021, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389/698 "2021-05-24T20:27:01Z")
Then why crow about it doing so? Well at least it is clear then: no, that by itself does not invalidate the theory. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2021, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389/699 "2021-05-24T20:34:28Z")
**Modnote** : Getting to much about the posters and not the posts. Both of you please remember the GD rules. > [@DemonTree](#): > > Does no one on this forum have any reading comprehension? @Gigobuster > [@GIGObuster](#): > > That came from you thinking that you were correct about interest-convergence ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2021, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389/700 "2021-05-25T09:59:02Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > I didn’t choose them. Yes you did. You chose them to make your argument. > [@damuriajashi](#): > > And what are the correct metrics? Ones that are actually relevant for the argument you are trying to make. > [@damuriajashi](#): > > Sure trump was a racist and probably the worst thing to happen to america but can you point to some of his anti-black rhetoric that offers up the “the usual “alternative explanation” offered up is simply that black people really are intellectually inferior and naturally prone to criminality and moral bankruptcy.” > > I mean if its so prevalent, you shouldn’t have any trouble coming up with some mainstream folks offering up the USUAL “alternative explanation” > > Or you could admit that you were really just arguing about a type of racism that doesn’t really exists anymore. > > Anti-black racism exists but perhaps not as much as their white “allies” think So you’re conflating various things I’ve said in order to demand that I provide verbatim evidence of something I didn’t claim, and then demanding that if I can’t do that I must concede the point I _actually_ made? If you’re unable to make your case without this sort of rhetorical chicanery, you might as well just admit that the type of racism I’m talking about **does** exist. Of course, doing so would undermine your entire agenda. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2021, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389/701 "2021-05-25T10:04:12Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > that by itself does not invalidate the theory Agreed. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2021, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389/702 "2021-05-25T16:12:50Z")
Back to the very related news: And the Orwellian justifications for banning the teaching of CRT and anything that even smells like it continues. Once again, conservative politicians are only showing that specially minorities that are in high positions in education should be banned from [watching the watchmen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quis_custodiet_ipsos_custodes%3F), and it is not the TV show. > **[DeSantis hopes to block Critical Race Theory from Florida classrooms](https://www.wtxl.com/news/local-news/desantis-hopes-to-block-critical-race-theory-from-florida-classroooms)** > > Governor Ron DeSantis denounced Critical Race Theory during a press conference in Pensacola Friday morning, saying he would stop it from being taught in Florida’s public schools. As I said before, most conservative Republicans are also ignorant of the Streisand effect, and that trying to scare or smear educators is in reality not a good idea. [Other educators, like in Texas and elsewhere, have found for years that what guys like DeSantis is claiming about CRT is poppycock.](https://www.edweek.org/leadership/opinion-no-critical-race-theory-isnt-anti-american/2020/10) > David E. DeMatthews is an associate professor in the College of Education at the University of Texas at Austin. > Terri N. Watson is an associate professor in the Department of Leadership and Human Development at the City College of New York > As a white man who was a school administrator and now researches and teaches aspiring principals, I—David—have seen how critical race theory can provide educators with a new lens for seeing their schools and rethinking their practices. I wish I had understood the full value of critical race theory when I was a school administrator in a racially segregated middle school in the District of Columbia. > > As a Black woman who understands the effects of racism in schools, I—Terri—know we must see the whole child, including the challenges those children face, based on the color of their skin. To deny their truth is to miss the bigger picture and our roles as educators. > > If the Trump administration truly seeks a more just nation, it will repeal its order and encourage federal agencies and public schools to embrace critical race theory. That was for the recent past, as for what is going on in the states: > **[DeSantis seeks to reinvent history and deny racism](https://www.miamitimesonline.com/opinion/desantis-seeks-to-reinvent-history-and-deny-racism/article_6e38e9d6-90bb-11eb-87ea-e7a4ac7c7513.html)** > > When things get tough, we know how to come together. Compassion is usually the powerful unifying force when we confront these challenges. And despite our differences, even racial differences, our > But even more disturbing is DeSantis’ obsession with denying the facts and attempting to rewrite history using the public schools. It is a sobering strategy that, if implemented, would result in violating the tenet of education: teaching the truth. Very telling is who DeSantis has engaged in helping with curriculum – Betsy DeVos, a sworn enemy of public schools. The project represents history denial and the expenditure of dwindling state dollars to create a small group spreading misinformation. We need to stand together as we have in the past and call out the governor’s apparent attempt to weaponize race and sanitize our history. > > I’m not one to mince words. This policy is a dangerous attempt to continue a racist and divisive mantra in Florida public schools. It is clear that people want our democracy to be inclusive for all. That is what defines it. Racism comes in many forms, and it is the most egregious form of hate. > > Rather than divide us, I call on the governor to work with us to move Florida forward. We must continue to learn from the past, not deny it. > > Adora Obi Nweze serves as president of the NAACP Florida State Conference. She spent decades as a classroom teacher and administrator in Florida’s public schools. ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2021, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389/703 "2021-05-25T16:27:53Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I can’t speak to what you’re “pretty sure of”, but in the timeframe of the “last couple of years” that you yourself gave, I was comparing the present (the last couple of years) to the past, I don’t know why you would think I would measure changes in racism over a 2 or 3 year period in a discussion like this. I was certainly not saying that there wasn’t a blip in racism during the trump administration. > [@Gyrate](#): > > Yes you did. You chose them to make your argument. I think you misread my post. I was presenting the arguments of “fairly right wing commentators” to show that even THEY don’t point to innate intellectual differences anymore. They point to these other things and then I go on to explain that their current explanation still do not adequately explain the racial gap because if things like out of wedlock birthrate explained everything, then the white asian gap would be comparable to the white black gap but it’s not. Something is pushing down blacks or asians or both (or elevating whites). I suspect we both agree on what this “something” is. I think I have been pretty consistent that the differences between asians and everyone else is how much emphasis asian americans place on education and academic effort. I’ve linked a peer reviewed study that say that the asian academic gap is largely the result of a gap in effort. And this focus on education does not come without tradeoffs. For example, the suicide rate among asian teenagers is disproportionately high. > [@Gyrate](#): > > Ones that are actually relevant for the argument you are trying to make. You got anything more specific than that? I mean if academic effort then what is? > [@Gyrate](#): > > So you’re conflating various things I’ve said in order to demand that I provide verbatim evidence of something I didn’t claim, and then demanding that if I can’t do that I must concede the point I _actually_ made? > > If you’re unable to make your case without this sort of rhetorical chicanery, you might as well just admit that the type of racism I’m talking about **does** exist. Of course, doing so would undermine your entire agenda. I thought claimed that the ‘usual “alternative explanation” offered up is simply that black people really are intellectually inferior’ I asked for examples and you provided none. > [@Gyrate](#): > > You realize, of course, that the usual “alternative explanation” offered up is simply that black people really are intellectually inferior and naturally prone to criminality and moral bankruptcy. And the people who make that argument point to all the same statistics about arrests and academic achievement and career success that the CRT people use as their “proof”. > > It’s not a very nice (or accurate or scientifically rigorous) argument, but it’s the one they’ve got and they seem to like it. I provided what I think is the more common explanation presented by the actual right wing, which is related to things like illegitimacy, dropout rates, etc. The mainstream right wing does not offer up innate intellectual differences as the reason for racial achievement gap anymore. That is why I asked for a recent cite presenting the “alternative explanation” of innate intellectual inferiority. So I think I am using you for evidence of the exact claim you made. I am asking for recent cites to people using what you think is the ‘usual “alternative explanation”’ I do not disagree that racism exists but the explanation you present is not one that is presented by the right wing these days. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2021, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389/704 "2021-05-25T16:39:47Z")
Oh they are not trying to be old fashion racists in the open, but try to look closely at the alleged few bad apples, and you see who they defend still. > **[The Racist Roots Of The Capitol Insurrection](https://www.wbur.org/onpoint/2021/01/14/the-racist-roots-of-the-capitol-insurrection)** > > We discuss racism's role in the attack on the Capitol. Now, no GOP to see there, huh? But even if we could pretend that no Republicans were there, the reality is that they are doing their damnest to avoid looking at what they allowed to grow for years among them. > **[House votes to create panel to investigate Jan. 6 insurrection over GOP...](https://www.chicagotribune.com/nation-world/ct-aud-nw-congress-capitol-insurrection-commission-20210519-wu34k6hx7fazniqfeov6psrsqu-story.html)** > > The House voted Wednesday to create an independent commission on the deadly Jan. 6 insurrection at the U.S. Capitol. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389.md?page=34) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-critical-race-theory-thread/941389.md?page=36)