# Another D-Day Question **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 6, 2016, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-d-day-question/756670 "2016-06-06T20:07:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![dolphinboy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dolphinboy/32/330_2.png) [@dolphinboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dolphinboy)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-d-day-question/756670/1 "2016-06-06T20:07:37Z")
I keep reading that Hitler was surprised when the Allies attacked at Normandy. For a while, we’re told, he thought the landings were a feint, and that a major attack was going to happen somewhere else, perhaps near Calais. With all of the activity that was going on weeks and months prior to D-Day it’s hard to imagine that the Germans, sitting only a few miles across the English channel, couldn’t figure out that something big was going to happen. The fact that they were so surprised seems surprising. We have to hand it to the Allies who were able to keep it secret so long and to position assets to fool the Germans, but that can’t be the whole story. Here are my questions: 1. Why was there no useful reconnaissance by the Germans days or weeks prior to the invasion? Where they completely unable to fly planes or balloons anywhere near Britain? Where the Allied assets completely hidden from their reconnaissance? How could the Allies have amassed that many ships and planes without the Germans knowing about it? 2. Why didn’t Hitler believe what was happening was real? Did he ignore the reports from France? He eventually sent tanks as reinforcements, but it wasn’t enough to stop the Allies from progressing. Did he have good reconnaissance that an attack was going to happen and simple ignore it? Was he so arrogant that he didn’t think such an invasion was even possible? 3. Where were all of the German spies in Britain and why didn’t they report the massing of troops and materials? Given the size of the invading force how could it have gone unnoticed by almost everyone? ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-d-day-question/756670/2 "2016-06-06T20:21:23Z")
A massive invasion was expected. It was the landing sites that were the secret. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-d-day-question/756670/3 "2016-06-06T20:31:42Z")
1. No, the Germans had zero aerial recon over Britain. By 1944, the Luftwaffe was a hollow shell. 2. Operation Fortitude was an amazing success. Patton’s “Ghost Army” fooled the Abwehr completely. The Germans were so positive that Patton would be in command of the invasion that they ignored any contrary evidence. 3. As **Grey** says, the invasion wasn’t that much of a secret. The location and the date **were**. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-d-day-question/756670/4 "2016-06-06T20:32:24Z")
The Germans knew the invasion was going to happen in May-June. The got the day wrong due to assumptions about tides and incoming weather. So Rommel took a few days off to go see his wife for her birthday. The Germans knew the Allies were amassing large numbers of ships and troops all along the S. UK coast. That tells you very little about the actual target. I.e., “Somewhere in N. France, probably.” The Allies deceived the Germans with a fake army, headed by Patton in SE England. This reinforced the belief that it would be at Pas-de-Calais. British intelligence did an excellent job in IDing and co-opting German agents in the UK. There were zero functional German agents in the UK for almost the whole war. They used some of them to feed the Germans fake intelligence. Remember: The German intelligence agency bosses hated Hitler and really didn’t do their best job. ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-d-day-question/756670/5 "2016-06-06T20:35:41Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > British intelligence did an excellent job in IDing and co-opting German agents in the UK. There were zero functional German agents in the UK for almost the whole war. They used some of them to feed the Germans fake intelligence. ^This. The [Double Cross System](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-Cross_System) was amazingly effective. Every single German agent sent to Britain was either captured or turned themselves in to British Intelligence. The Germans thought they were still getting information from their agents but it was all created and orchestrated by the British. –Mark ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_s\_Son](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19adc/32.png) [@Jim\_s\_Son](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_s_Son)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-d-day-question/756670/6 "2016-06-06T21:09:51Z")
Hitler slept in on June 6, no one really cared to awaken him and when he did, he wasn’t agitated. He thought Normandy was a feint (as others have said, the Allies did a good job of selling the main landing will be in Calais). He thought the troops of Americans, British and Canadians were of low quality. He kept a divided command between Rommel and von Runstedt, who had differing ideas on how to prepare a defense. As Stephen Ambrose points out in several books, von Runstedt…the old man who was there mainly as window dressing, wanted two Panzer divisions that were under another command released to him to immediately counter the landings. He didn’t get them. Eisenhower had insisted on complete control of Overlord, and got it. His German counterparts couldn’t get that from Hitler, who always wanted to be in charge. > **[D-Day June 6, 1944: How did Hitler react?](https://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/Decoder/2015/0606/D-Day-June-6-1944-How-did-Hitler-react)** > > Considering the pivotal nature of June 6, 1944, one might expect that Hitler responded to the arrival of Allied troops on the banks of Normandy with alarm – quite the contrary. ---
**Author:** ![dolphinboy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dolphinboy/32/330_2.png) [@dolphinboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dolphinboy)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-d-day-question/756670/7 "2016-06-06T21:58:27Z")
Thanks everyone. Everything that’s been said makes sense. Even though the Germans knew that troops were being amassed in Britain, until they landed in France there was nothing they could really do about it. They reacted slowly because they feared it might be a trap or feint. All of this delay gave the Allies time to group up into a cohesive fighting force. The tanks didn’t come until a beachhead had already been established, and hundred of thousands of more troops had arrived. It was the beginning of the end, but Hitler didn’t know it yet. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-d-day-question/756670/8 "2016-06-06T22:27:01Z")
> [@dolphinboy](#): > > 3)Given the size of the invading force how could it have gone unnoticed by almost everyone? A good starting point for background on the utter sneaky bastardry of the Allied intelligence services is the wiki article for [Joan Pujol Garcia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_Pujol_Garcia) aka GARBO, who ended up with an MBE from King George VI and an Iron Cross from Hitler. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-d-day-question/756670/9 "2016-06-06T23:01:04Z")
Well Patton fear was mostly a myth, the Germans paid [him little heed until well after the landings](http://warontherocks.com/2014/08/warchives-the-myth-of-germanys-obsession-with-patton/). ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-d-day-question/756670/10 "2016-06-06T23:09:12Z")
Garbo’s deception was vital. He raised his credibility by actually warning the Germans that the invasion was in Normandy, but it was received too late to be useful. This made his disinformation about Patton’s fake army completely credible. He uniquely got an Iron Cross from Hitler and an MBO from George VI. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-d-day-question/756670/11 "2016-06-06T23:23:44Z")
Another factor was Allied air superiority. The Allies would pretty much attack any significant German units they saw on the move in daytime. So even if the Germans had known the landings in Normandy were the main invasion, they would have been very limited in their ability to send in reinforcements. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2016, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-d-day-question/756670/12 "2016-06-07T00:24:09Z")
Meanwhile, on the southern front, the British came up with[this clever and successful plan to us a floating corpse](http://www.futilitycloset.com/2015/12/07/podcast-episode-84-the-man-who-never-was/) to fool the Germans into thinking the main invasion would come through Greece rather than through Italy. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2016, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-d-day-question/756670/13 "2016-06-07T02:41:44Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > 1. No, the Germans had zero aerial recon over Britain. By 1944, the Luftwaffe was a hollow shell I’ve read that the Luftwaffe got ONE photoreconnaisance plane across the channel during the week before D-Day. And the Allies were using fake guns and inflatable tanks right where the Germans expected to find Patton’s fictional First US Army Group (FUSAG), so even if that one plane managed to get good pictures, odds are good they were misleading anyway. Germany was blind – and it was no accident. Allied high command had gone to extraordinary lengths to achieve surprise. That’s because they were about to put 160,000 men onto a continent controlled by 300 German divisions. In France, the Germans had sixty divisions, against which the Western Allies would hurl seven. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2016, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-d-day-question/756670/14 "2016-06-07T03:02:39Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > Meanwhile, on the southern front, the British came up with[this clever and successful plan to us a floating corpse](http://www.futilitycloset.com/2015/12/07/podcast-episode-84-the-man-who-never-was/) to fool the Germans into thinking the main invasion would come through Greece rather than through Italy. That was in 1942 so I don’t think it really counts as “meanwhile”. But Operation Mincemeat did have an effect on Operation Overlord. During the invasion, the Germans captured a briefcase full of plans for the battle. These were the real plans. But having been fooled by the fake plans that were planted for them in Operation Mincemeat, the Germans were suspicious that the plans they had captured were another set-up so they decided to ignore them. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2016, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-d-day-question/756670/15 "2016-06-07T03:25:07Z")
[Operation Copperhead](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Copperhead) - the British used an actor with a resemblance to Field Marshal Montgomery to make the Germans think Montgomery was in Southern Europe and therefore there was no invasion imminent. Copperhead was one part of the whole [Operation Bodyguard](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Bodyguard), the overall deception program. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2016, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-d-day-question/756670/16 "2016-06-07T04:18:34Z")
This story is a clear example of the superiority of democracies in waging war. Just so many examples of things that could only happen in a dictatorship: 1. No one wanting to wake the leader 2. Agents who weren’t under his thumb not really feeling like doing their jobs 3. Inefficient use of military assets. It’s actually incorrect that the Luftwaffe couldn’t reach Britain. They were reaching Britain regularly. They just weren’t doing what they needed to be doing: > **[Operation Steinbock](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Steinbock)** > > Aircraft > 1 destroyed in combat5 damaged in combat1 to friendly-fire22 lost to other causes > Aircraft If Hitler had been more interested in fighting the war rather than just killing people for the sake of killing people… ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2016, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-d-day-question/756670/17 "2016-06-07T13:34:13Z")
Note that there were [some tanks](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sword_Beach#German_counter-attacks) used on D-Day. Not very effective due to Allied air attacks, but they did keep the Brits from taking [Port-en-Bessin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Port-en-Bessin) on the first day and slowed the link-up of the US and UK bridgeheads. ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2016, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-d-day-question/756670/18 "2016-06-07T15:01:57Z")
> [@dolphinboy](#): > > 1. Why was there no useful reconnaissance by the Germans days or weeks prior to the invasion? Where they completely unable to fly planes or balloons anywhere near Britain? Where the Allied assets completely hidden from their reconnaissance? How could the Allies have amassed that many ships and planes without the Germans knowing about it? As was already pointed out, Operation Fortitude was a complete success. German intelligence failed, the various intelligence organizations did not cooperate. Everybody in the German High Command expected the “big” and decisive landing to occur at the Pas de Calais, even months after D-Day. The Navy Command in the West (_Marinegruppenkommando West_, Navy Group Command West) however pointed out that (a) the Allies would probably not attack were everybody (including the Germans) would expect them to attack (some reverse psychology there) and (b) that the extreme large naval force that would be needed to support an alleged landing of 80 divisions was nowhere to be seen. The Navy concluded that the invasion would probably occur somewhere between Cherbourg and the estuary of the river Somme. The Air Force Command in the West (_Luftflotte 3_, Air Fleet 3) had analyzed the effects of Allied air attacks and had come to the same conclusion as the Navy. The warnings of both the Navy and the Air Force, however, were not heeded by the German High Command. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2016, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-d-day-question/756670/19 "2016-06-08T02:14:48Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > That was in 1942 so I don’t think it really counts as “meanwhile”. But Operation Mincemeat did have an effect on Operation Overlord. During the invasion, the Germans captured a briefcase full of plans for the battle. These were the real plans. But having been fooled by the fake plans that were planted for them in Operation Mincemeat, the Germans were suspicious that the plans they had captured were another set-up so they decided to ignore them. I stand to be corrected, but I believe what you are referring to happened about three months later, during [Operation Market Garden](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Market_Garden) (Arnhem, ‘A Bridge Too Far’). ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2016, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-d-day-question/756670/20 "2016-06-08T02:59:25Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > I stand to be corrected, but I believe what you are referring to happened about three months later, during [Operation Market Garden](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Market_Garden) (Arnhem, ‘A Bridge Too Far’). No, Nemo’s right. Mincemeat was about floating a dead body from a submarine off of Spain in 1942. The body had fake war plans in its pocket. The Brits set the whole thing up by carefully creating a false identity in several subtle ways, back in England as well as on the corpse. They also lucked out in that there happened to be a real plane crash off the coast of Spain a few days before. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-d-day-question/756670.md?page=2)