# Another deadly shooting **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 10, 2014, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-deadly-shooting/690488 "2014-06-10T18:04:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-deadly-shooting/690488/61 "2014-06-11T05:14:47Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Wrong. For instance, limits on magazine capacity make guns less dangerous - for mass homicides. Any device that rendered a gun inoperable by anyone besides the owner would make the gun less dangerous - for homicides, accidents, and suicides alike. I gather that there are ways of reducing or increasing the time between shots for a semiautomatic weapon, the latter of which would make it less dangerous - for homicides and multiple homicides. Maybe even some accidents. There may be other safety related features that would make guns even safer than they are now, but that wasn’t your claim. I make no comment as to the added safety of any of the items you mentioned. **Your claim was that guns haven’t gotten safer. That’s false.** There have been many safety improvements to guns over time. Accidental deaths from guns have gone down dramatically over the last 20 years. That is evidence they have either gotten safer, or people have become more circumspect in their use. Guns are actually very safe by themselves. They hardly ever don’t behave in a way that is intended. Properly maintained, when you pull the trigger, they fire as desired. That’s exactly what a gun owner wants. ---
**Author:** ![Six\_Foot\_Five](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/71e660/32.png) [@Six\_Foot\_Five](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Six_Foot_Five)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-deadly-shooting/690488/62 "2014-06-11T07:17:41Z")
> [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > …In any case, have fun jacking off into your rifle tonight. Any self-respecting NRA member uses a handgun and Hoppe’s #9… ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-deadly-shooting/690488/63 "2014-06-11T12:13:52Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > You’re saying that there was some year, or series of years, that the US had more than 21,900 firearm homicides in a year? What year was that??? The 1880s. Clearly you don’t watch Westerns. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-deadly-shooting/690488/64 "2014-06-11T13:03:49Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > **Your claim was that guns haven’t gotten safer. That’s false.** There have been many safety improvements to guns over time. Accidental deaths from guns have gone down dramatically over the last 20 years. If gun deaths have plateaued from 2000 until now, and gun homicides have gone down from 2000 until now, how can gun accidents have also gone down automatically from 2000 until now? What category of gun death am I missing here has gone up to balance the other two categories going down? 1. Death by accident 2. Death on purpose 3. ??? ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-deadly-shooting/690488/65 "2014-06-11T13:09:06Z")
Suicides, perhaps, though I don’t know if that’s the case. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-deadly-shooting/690488/66 "2014-06-11T13:15:20Z")
Well, we haven’t improved the safety features on the human that pulls the trigger lately… ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-deadly-shooting/690488/67 "2014-06-11T13:20:39Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > Suicides, perhaps, though I don’t know if that’s the case. Upon review, firearm suicides have increased more than homicides have declined. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-deadly-shooting/690488/68 "2014-06-11T14:21:44Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > Upon review, firearm suicides have increased more than homicides have declined. That’s not to the good, then. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-deadly-shooting/690488/69 "2014-06-11T15:20:46Z")
Even if you think of it as Darwin in action, which could account for decreased percentages of gun-containing households, no, it isn’t to the good. They’re still our people. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-deadly-shooting/690488/70 "2014-06-11T15:22:11Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > That’s not to the good, then. What? ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-deadly-shooting/690488/71 "2014-06-11T18:29:44Z")
Over half of all suicides are by firearm. If all the guns in the US were magically made to disappear, the suicide rate for that 50%+ would not drop to zero…but it would drop, because there is overwhelming evidence that making suicide slightly more difficult does reduce the total number of suicides. We also note that suicide attempts via firearm are far more likely to be successful than non-firearm attempts…and not everyone that survives a suicide attempt goes on to succesfully kill themselves. You can not compare Japan and the US when it comes to suicide; the cultural mindset and religious views regarding death, the afterlife and suicide is just too radically different. The UK and the US are probably the closest culturally speaking; one could surmise that the UK’s suicide rate would be much higher if it wasn’t for the gun controls! And we know that the homicide rate is much, much lower in the UK and Japan, even though the total crime rate is much higher in the UK than the US. More guns, more dead people. It’s not rocket science. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-deadly-shooting/690488/72 "2014-06-11T19:50:37Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Over half of all suicides are by firearm. If all the guns in the US were magically made to disappear, the suicide rate for that 50%+ would not drop to zero…but it would drop, because there is overwhelming evidence that making suicide slightly more difficult does reduce the total number of suicides. We also note that suicide attempts via firearm are far more likely to be successful than non-firearm attempts…and not everyone that survives a suicide attempt goes on to succesfully kill themselves. > > You can not compare Japan and the US when it comes to suicide; the cultural mindset and religious views regarding death, the afterlife and suicide is just too radically different. The UK and the US are probably the closest culturally speaking; one could surmise that the UK’s suicide rate would be much higher if it wasn’t for the gun controls! And we know that the homicide rate is much, much lower in the UK and Japan, even though the total crime rate is much higher in the UK than the US. > > More guns, more dead people. It’s not rocket science. None of that post can be supported with anything other than your word. Some of it is, in fact, demonstrably false. There are other methods of suicide that are just as effective as a gunshot. And they just happen to be the preferred methods in countries that have more limited access to firearms. Those are counties such as France, Belgium, Finland, and Austria that have higher suicide rates than the US. If you want to make the case that limiting access to firearms reduces the suicide rate, you need to support it with facts. ---
**Author:** ![This\_Just\_In\_2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@This\_Just\_In\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/This_Just_In_2)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-deadly-shooting/690488/73 "2014-06-11T23:00:58Z")
Shit always hits home when it happens in your neighborhood. The kid that was shot went to the same Elementary school that is where my kids would go. Just a year ago some shooter killed some people at the local mall too. What is wrong with the country when there are so many apologists for these shooters. There is always an excuse with the NRA types that tighter controls could/would not have stopped the latest shooting. In this case it seems people are putting the blame on the parents for not securing the firearms well enough even though they were in a locked safe. Doesn’t hold water to me because any safe can be opened if you have time and tools. But why the fuck do people even think they need to own an AR-15 with several hundreds rounds stored up? It is just not on my wavelength. If people were only allowed to own regular hunting/sportsman rifles that held 7 or so rounds then maybe shooters wouldn’t feel so empowered to walk into malls/schools all Rambo like. These people seems to usually be cowards in that they suicide as soon as the cops arrive. Does a coward walk into a crowded area with only a few shots before he has to reload? ---
**Author:** ![racepug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@racepug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/racepug)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-deadly-shooting/690488/74 "2014-06-11T23:08:34Z")
> [@XT](#): > > So, in addition to your general fuck monkey tendencies you also have reading comprehension and retention issues as well. The eagle eyed observer, with the keen ability to scroll up will, of course, be able to see that it’s your strawman about what did or didn’t bother me more, and all I actually said was that I was tired of the jerking of knees. > > Hopefully you aren’t representative of the next generation to run this ‘fine country’, since you are, well, a knee jerking idiot. Well, whatever I am to you (which is absolutely meaningless) I’m about 100000X the person that you purport to be. GUARANTEED. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-deadly-shooting/690488/75 "2014-06-11T23:15:29Z")
> [@racepug](#): > > Well, whatever I am to you (which is absolutely meaningless) I’m about 100000X the person that you purport to be. GUARANTEED. I doubt that. I mean, no matter how fat you are, or how much more of a knee jerking fuck monkey you are, it’s hard to believe that you are 6 orders of magnitude more of those things than I am. As for your guarantee, well, what’s that backed up by? Do I get to send you back if you fail to prove your claim? Can I exchange you for a better, less knee jerking fuck monkey? Could I exchange you for, oh, say a punch bunny without knees? Or a fuck lemur with a twitchy tail?? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-deadly-shooting/690488/76 "2014-06-11T23:42:42Z")
> [@XT](#): > > I doubt that. I mean, no matter how fat you are, or how much more of a knee jerking fuck monkey you are, it’s hard to believe that you are 6 orders of magnitude more of those things than I am. As for your guarantee, well, what’s that backed up by? Do I get to send you back if you fail to prove your claim? Can I exchange you for a better, less knee jerking fuck monkey? Could I exchange you for, oh, say a punch bunny without knees? Or a fuck lemur with a twitchy tail?? I’m not especially anti-gun, so I’m not really ideological on this subject, and I just wanted to say, as an observer, I don’t think that sounded as scathing as you intended. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-deadly-shooting/690488/77 "2014-06-11T23:50:34Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I’m not especially anti-gun, so I’m not really ideological on this subject, and I just wanted to say, as an observer, I don’t think that sounded as scathing as you intended. It wasn’t really supposed to be. I save the really scathing stuff for folks like NFBW and his ilk. I don’t THINK this OP is in the same universe, just someone with a bug up their ass and a jerking knee. Happens to everyone. NFBW though…THAT guy is a real idiot. ETA: Also, I’m fairly neutral on the whole gun control issue. I haven’t got major problems with regulations or even registration, and I think restrictions are both necessary and logical. I’m against out right bans, at least from the perspective of doing them without changing or doing away with the 2nd Amendment first, but I don’t think that regulation are incomparable with the 2nd, per se. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2014, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-deadly-shooting/690488/78 "2014-06-12T04:07:31Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > None of that post can be supported with anything other than your word. Some of it is, in fact, demonstrably false. > > There are other methods of suicide that are just as effective as a gunshot. And they just happen to be the preferred methods in countries that have more limited access to firearms. Those are counties such as France, Belgium, Finland, and Austria that have higher suicide rates than the US. > > If you want to make the case that limiting access to firearms reduces the suicide rate, you need to support it with facts. The suicide rate in Australia fell by 60% with no increase in rates by other methods. [http://thinkprogress.org/health/2012/12/18/1353811/australia-gun-control-suicides/](http://thinkprogress.org/health/2012/12/18/1353811/australia-gun-control-suicides/) ---
**Author:** ![Kaboodle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8edcca/32.png) [@Kaboodle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaboodle)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2014, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-deadly-shooting/690488/79 "2014-06-12T06:21:51Z")
I remember being in a debate years ago and the topic of suicides in Austrailia came up. Firearms were strictly regulated in 1996 and I checked the number of suicides before and after. What I found then didn’t agree with your article so I dug into the stats again. Anyone that would like to double check my numbers is more than welcome to do so (in fact, I’d appreciate it). It seems the whole format of the report changes each year. Check out the [Austrailian Bureau of Statistics](http://www.abs.gov.au) Two things about the list below. When charts listed data for multiple years, I double checked my numbers to make sure they agree. They always agreed or were within 1 or 2. The chart for 2012 had different numbers for 2006-2011. For those lines, the 2012 number is first, the data from that year’s pdf is in parenthesis. There was also a note that in 2008 the definition of ‘Intentional Self Harm’ was revised which accounts for some of the increase from 2007. Suicides in Austrailia 1985: 1,827 1986: 1,982 1987: 2,240 1988: 2,197 1989: 2,096 1990: 2,161 1991: 2,360 1992: 2,294 1993: 2,081 1994: 2,258 1995: 2,357 1996: 2,393 1997: 2,723 1998: 2,683 1999: 2,492 2000: 2,363 2001: 2,454 2002: 2,320 2003: 2,213 2004: 2,098 2005: 2,101 2006: 2,118 (1,799) 2007: 2,229 (1,880) 2008: 2,341 (2,191) 2009: 2,337 (2,132) 2010: 2,480 (2,361) 2011: 2,380 (2,273) 2012: 2,535 Your article didn’t give any numbers but even using the lower numbers in 2006-2011, I’m not seeing any significant change in the number of suicides. I can believe their claims that homicides by firearm dropped 59% and suicides by firearm dropped 65% but I’m not seeing a drop in the total number of suicides. It certainly seems to me that if people want to commit suicide the presence of guns doesn’t have as big an effect as they think. I’d be very interested if anyone has more information or better numbers/data on this subject. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2014, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-deadly-shooting/690488/80 "2014-06-12T12:17:46Z")
**Kaboodle** , first, you’re right - the 65% reduction was specific to firearms. I apologize for being confusing on that key point. However, regarding overall suicides, this is from your own cite: > [@](#): > > • Suicide rates decrease over a decade (Media Release) [http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/Latestproducts/8D157E15E9D912E7CA257A440014CE53?opendocument](http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/Latestproducts/8D157E15E9D912E7CA257A440014CE53?opendocument) > [@](#): > > The suicide rate in Australia has decreased by 17% over the past decade, from 12.7 to 10.5 deaths per 100,000 people, according to the Australian Bureau of Statistics (ABS). Now, that press release is talking about the decade from 2001 to 2010. So, the suicide rate dropped, but the most dramatic drop was specific to firearm suicides. Here’s more on the pre-post gun ban homicide and suicide rates: > **[Harvard Injury Control Research Center | Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public...](https://hsph.harvard.edu/research/injury-control/)** > > The Center aims to reduce the societal burden of injury and violence through surveillance, research, intervention, evaluation, outreach, and training. > [@](#): > > The NFA also seems to have reduced firearm homicide outside of mass shootings, as well as firearm suicide. In the seven years before the NFA (1989-1995), the average annual firearm suicide death rate per 100,000 was 2.6 (with a yearly range of 2.2 to 2.9); in the seven years after the buyback was fully implemented (1998-2004), the average annual firearm suicide rate was 1.1 (yearly range 0.8 to 1.4). In the seven years before the NFA, the average annual firearm homicide rate per 100,000 was .43 (range .27 to .60) while for the seven years post NFA, the average annual firearm homicide rate was .25 (range .16 to .33).3 One thing that caught my eye is that the data you pulled do seem to show an uptick in suicides over the last couple of years. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-deadly-shooting/690488.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-deadly-shooting/690488.md?page=5)