# Another "debunk this" thread...this time about the Confederates and Southerners **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 23, 2015, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-debunk-this-thread-this-time-about-the-confederates-and-southerners/725912 "2015-07-23T00:07:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-debunk-this-thread-this-time-about-the-confederates-and-southerners/725912/41 "2015-07-23T15:07:28Z")
Is **southsplaining** a word yet? If not I hereby coin it in honor of Shagnasty. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-debunk-this-thread-this-time-about-the-confederates-and-southerners/725912/42 "2015-07-23T15:09:48Z")
> [@tnetennba](#): > > Is **southsplaining** a word yet? If not I hereby coin it in honor of Shagnasty. That would be awesome. I love having terms named in honor of me. There have been a few over the years. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-debunk-this-thread-this-time-about-the-confederates-and-southerners/725912/43 "2015-07-23T15:13:14Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > My only offense is talking about it in a dispassionate tone which is intentional. Of course I think slavery is wrong. That goes without saying. Outrage contests aren’t interesting to me. The history and circumstances that created and sustained such a system are. You thought there was some value in observing that slave owners did not benefit from damaging their property? Somehow that needs saying? And it seems you’re less interested in dispassionately considering the factors that created and sustained such a system, but are motivated by an agenda of defending the South as much as possible (hence the nostalgia about your long family history of slavery). You can choose to be dispassionate about defending the South regarding slavery. It doesn’t mean that it’s reasonable for others to be dispassionate rather than disgusted by your beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-debunk-this-thread-this-time-about-the-confederates-and-southerners/725912/44 "2015-07-23T15:14:29Z")
> [@tnetennba](#): > > Is **southsplaining** a word yet? If not I hereby coin it in honor of Shagnasty. We already have “whitewashing”, which is what he’s doing to Confederate history ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-debunk-this-thread-this-time-about-the-confederates-and-southerners/725912/45 "2015-07-23T15:15:14Z")
Just so I’m clear, because I’ll inevitably argue about this with someone on FB, was the states’ rights issue only about slavery? Were there any other rights issues in play at all? Taxes or something? I don’t want to make the claim it was 100% slavery rights if someone is going to come up with a cite about some other little rights issue. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-debunk-this-thread-this-time-about-the-confederates-and-southerners/725912/46 "2015-07-23T15:23:18Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > And it seems you’re less interested in dispassionately considering the factors that created and sustained such a system, but are motivated by an agenda of defending the South as much as possible (hence the nostalgia about your long family history of slavery). The only reason I brought up my family’s history of slaveowning wasn’t to defend them or slavery or anything of the sort. I have heard people make the claim that hardly anyone ever admits that their family owned slaves. Well, now you have. It is a simple fact that I wish didn’t exist of but the facts cannot be changed now.[I could have pulled a Ben Affleck and omitted that completely](http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/06/25/after-omitting-details-of-ben-afflecks-slave-owning-ancestor-finding-your-roots-is-suspended-by-pbs/) but I felt it was relevant for full disclosure even though I know from experience that admission will make some people irrationally angry at me for something that ended over 100 years before I was even born. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-debunk-this-thread-this-time-about-the-confederates-and-southerners/725912/47 "2015-07-23T15:24:06Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Just so I’m clear, because I’ll inevitably argue about this with someone on FB, was the states’ rights issue only about slavery? Were there any other rights issues in play at all? Taxes or something? I don’t want to make the claim it was 100% slavery rights if someone is going to come up with a cite about some other little rights issue. Well, the states rights issues were mainly focused around slavery in one way or another. There were a lot of smaller issues concerning slavery that were hotly debated at the time. If a slave fled one state, did another state have to extradite the slave back? Ironically, not if states rights were being upheld individually instead of devolving to a Federal government to act as an overall sovereign. What about new states…would they be slave or free and who would decide? This had implications in the overall balance of power, since the Southerners (rightfully) feared that if only free states were allowed in the Union that eventually this would tip the balance and force change on the issue. FWIW, [here](http://qz.com/378533/for-the-last-time-the-american-civil-war-was-not-about-states-rights/) is a cite on how ‘states rights’ weren’t what the Civil War was about. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-debunk-this-thread-this-time-about-the-confederates-and-southerners/725912/48 "2015-07-23T15:44:53Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Just so I’m clear, because I’ll inevitably argue about this with someone on FB, was the states’ rights issue only about slavery? Were there any other rights issues in play at all? Taxes or something? I don’t want to make the claim it was 100% slavery rights if someone is going to come up with a cite about some other little rights issue. Read the statements of secession. Every one says explicitly that the reason for seceding was that the federal government was increasingly hostile to their practice of slavery. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-debunk-this-thread-this-time-about-the-confederates-and-southerners/725912/49 "2015-07-23T15:46:44Z")
Okay, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-debunk-this-thread-this-time-about-the-confederates-and-southerners/725912/50 "2015-07-23T15:52:23Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > My only point to that was some people use the battle flag as a general symbol of rebellion rather than anything to do with the Confederacy in particular. What’s your feelings on Jane Fonda going to Hanoi during the Vietnam War? I feel waving a Confederate flag is the moral equivalent of that. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-debunk-this-thread-this-time-about-the-confederates-and-southerners/725912/51 "2015-07-23T16:04:09Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Just so I’m clear, because I’ll inevitably argue about this with someone on FB, was the states’ rights issue only about slavery? Were there any other rights issues in play at all? Taxes or something? I don’t want to make the claim it was 100% slavery rights if someone is going to come up with a cite about some other little rights issue. [Here are the official reasons.](http://www.ucs.louisiana.edu/~ras2777/amgov/secession.html) These are the proclamations issued by the governments of seceding states explaining why they were seceding. They are clear and direct - it was all about slavery and nothing else. If somebody gives you a supposed cite that says otherwise, check the date. You’ll find that all the claims that there were other causes were written after the war ended. These claims are attempts to rewrite history. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-debunk-this-thread-this-time-about-the-confederates-and-southerners/725912/52 "2015-07-23T17:22:08Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > It probably was. But you still keep the picture of the slaveowner in a place of honor and would “assault” anyone who tried to remove it. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-debunk-this-thread-this-time-about-the-confederates-and-southerners/725912/53 "2015-07-23T17:24:08Z")
> [@tnetennba](#): > > Is **southsplaining** a word yet? If not I hereby coin it in honor of Shagnasty. Slavesplainin’ would be more accurate. I am proud of being from the (contemporary) south. But not the old slave trading part. Or maybe Confederatehandwavin’? ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-debunk-this-thread-this-time-about-the-confederates-and-southerners/725912/54 "2015-07-23T17:25:49Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > [I could have pulled a Ben Affleck and omitted that completely](http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/06/25/after-omitting-details-of-ben-afflecks-slave-owning-ancestor-finding-your-roots-is-suspended-by-pbs/) but I felt it was relevant for full disclosure even though I know from experience that admission will make some people irrationally angry at me for something that ended over 100 years before I was even born. 1. If your argument is “I didn’t sink as low as Ben Affleck”, there’s a problem with your argument. 2. Nobody’s angry at you for the Civil War. They’re angry because you think slavery is no big deal, not compared to some stuff at least and because you don’t get that putting a pic of your grandfather on the wall and would “assault” anyone who tried to remove it is just gross. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-debunk-this-thread-this-time-about-the-confederates-and-southerners/725912/55 "2015-07-23T18:01:09Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Just so I’m clear, because I’ll inevitably argue about this with someone on FB, was the states’ rights issue only about slavery? Were there any other rights issues in play at all? Taxes or something? I don’t want to make the claim it was 100% slavery rights if someone is going to come up with a cite about some other little rights issue. One thing that did happen is a [tarrif](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morrill_Tariff)did go into effect just before the wr started that very much favored the industrial Northern states. But the tarriff only passed because the southerners had already seceeded. A handful of speeches made by Southerners mention the mean ol’ Morrill tarrif but only after they mention the election of Lincoln, their right to keep humans in bondage, etc. Mordern neo-confederate apologists, desperate to hide any mention of slavery have tried to blow the tarriff issue well beyond its influence. ---
**Author:** ![OffByOne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/45deac/32.png) [@OffByOne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OffByOne)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-debunk-this-thread-this-time-about-the-confederates-and-southerners/725912/56 "2015-07-23T20:06:44Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Because the war wasn’t fought over freeing the slaves, it was over states rights in the end, as well as the slave ISSUE with new states and how that balanced the power between slave and non-slave states. And Abe didn’t free all the slaves because he hoped for a peaceful settlement and to be able to re-incorporate the rebellious states back into the Union as easily as could be managed. Doesn’t mean he didn’t want to free them, but political realities being what they were he knew if he did this it would mean a fight to the finish. He eventually came to the realization it was going to be that anyway, so you get the emancipation proclamation. > > Whoever wrote the explanation is using half truths and outright fabrications in order to try and spin things their way, relying on folks to be pretty shaky on their Civil War history. > > We weren’t taught a LOT of details about the Civil War in any US school, and they made up a pretty small part and weren’t approved by the Confederacy until pretty late in the game…[1865](http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/confederacy-approves-black-soldiers), which happens to be the year the war ended. They were basically a footnote…a few thousand blacks fought on the rebels side for various reasons, verse several hundred thousand on the union side. > > The explanation here is even more bullshit and is again an attempt to spin things (very badly) by relying on his or her audience to be ignorant and shocked that any black soldiers fought for the Confederacy. > > Again, a lot of details aren’t taught in US schools for history, which is not considered a very important subject. Think back on your own history experience in grade or high school and tell me…how much did you learn? Sure, there were (a very few) black slave owners. There were free blacks in the south as well. But they were pretty sparse compared to the vast majority, which were very wealthy white land owners. > > Again, a load of BS for spin on the ‘answer’ here. I take it that you learned _your_ history in one of the Northern states, and not in the South, where every historical American event prior to 1860 was just setting the stage for the Great War, and everything that occurred after the war was a direct consequence of that war. At least, that’s what I learned from my history classes in Texas. Or do people in Pennsylvania go out on weekends and re-enact Gettysburg? ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2015, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-debunk-this-thread-this-time-about-the-confederates-and-southerners/725912/57 "2015-07-24T05:14:40Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > That would be awesome. I love having terms named in honor of me. There have been a few over the years. Chick was a freak, I Shagnastied her and she was all about it! ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2015, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-debunk-this-thread-this-time-about-the-confederates-and-southerners/725912/58 "2015-07-24T09:40:28Z")
> [@OffByOne](#): > > I take it that you learned _your_ history in one of the Northern states, and not in the South, where every historical American event prior to 1860 was just setting the stage for the Great War, and everything that occurred after the war was a direct consequence of that war. > > At least, that’s what I learned from my history classes in Texas. > > Or do people in Pennsylvania go out on weekends and re-enact Gettysburg? How old are you? I go 'way back but don’t remember such a Confederate slant in the classroom. Of course, I’ve also continued learning–through books & PBS. I didn’t stop learning “my” history when I was a child. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2015, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-debunk-this-thread-this-time-about-the-confederates-and-southerners/725912/59 "2015-07-24T09:52:56Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Chick was a freak, I Shagnastied her and she was all about it! Shagnasty isn’t a verb, it’s a noun - an island so covered in the vile guano of the blue-eyed shag, it was named after that miasma. Or just a bad lay, according to Brian Blessed (while comparing Genghis Khan and Eyafajallyokull). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-debunk-this-thread-this-time-about-the-confederates-and-southerners/725912.md?page=2)