# Another Example of Atheists Destroying Christian's Rights **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 30, 2012, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555 "2012-05-30T16:52:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 32
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/621 "2012-06-06T11:24:27Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > **GEEPERS** : if a public schhol’s student body decided to do a blackface minstrel show, but the lone African American student objected. . . Then he’s not a True Christian? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/622 "2012-06-06T11:38:02Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > **GEEPERS** : if a public schhol’s student body decided to do a blackface minstrel show, but the lone African American student objected. . . Ya know, statistically speaking, nine out of ten people enjoy gang rape.\* \*Well, I’m already apparently hellbound so might as well go in style. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/623 "2012-06-06T12:04:24Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > What I do care about is the right of free speech. People should be allowed to follow their own choice of religion, or no religion, even in schools. They should be allowed to pray, if they want to. Some people might find that prayer inspirational. They ought to be allowed to hang up a banner. I fully support their moral right to do so. People are allowed. But the school is a GOVERNMENT institution and therefore it should not be advocating ANY religeon. > [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > I don’t pretend to know American constitutional law. Maybe she is technically within the letter of the law to do this. But she sure as hell is morally wrong. I object to this, not as an attack on Christians, but as an attack on freedom of speech. Her actions have harmed Christians, but also Jews, Buddhists and Atheists too. Bullshit. It hasn’t “harmed” anyone. From the Constitution: First Amendment: > [@](#): > > **Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion** , or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. American Constitutional law is designed to create a separation of church and state. The government is not to interfere with religion and religion is not to interfere with government. And by doing this, the rights of people are protected both for religeon and from it. When the state, acting through one of it’s institutions (in this case a school) incorporates symbolism of a particular religion (in this case Christianity), it becomes an advocate of that religeon and implicitly makes it “official”. And from my experience, the mentality of many right wing religious types is that they simply do not grasp the concept. When they hear “freedom of religion”, they assume it to mean the toleration of all other religions that are not Christ-based and which are usually a local minority. In their minds, Christianity is the de-facto state religeon and should be treated as such. ---
**Author:** ![Dung\_Beetle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dung_beetle/32/7945_2.png) [@Dung\_Beetle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dung_Beetle)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/624 "2012-06-06T12:57:52Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Technically, the “Green Lantern” being referred to is the one from 1940-Alan Scott. _His_ power comes from a magical green flame, his weakness is wood, and he looks like [this](http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2010/323/4/d/alan_scott_green_lantern_by_thuddleston-d335q6v.jpg). This is supposed to be \*less \*gay? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/625 "2012-06-06T13:04:06Z")
> [@Dung\_Beetle](#): > > This is supposed to be \*less \*gay? Especially with a weakness for wood. Hopefully, no super villains will make their lairs in Minnesota airport bathrooms or highway truck stops. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/626 "2012-06-06T13:04:21Z")
> [@Dung\_Beetle](#): > > This is supposed to be \*less \*gay? No, no, that’s the openly gay one. [This](http://www.hyperborea.org/flash/bigimages/hal-greenlantern.jpg)is the totes straight one 😉 ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/627 "2012-06-06T13:18:54Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > See, I was right. A lot of atheists really do hate Christians and have a strong desire to erase it from society. From a spiritual perspective, the darkness does not like the light. from a spiritual perspective, Christianity is not the light , simply because it gives lip service to Jesus. I think Jesus makes that quite clear. Most athesists have no problem with with the teachings of Jesus that ask us to be be kinder and more compassionate to each other, or to care for the poor. The objection is ignorence and superstion that affects us all. > [@](#): > > I really don’t see the difference between a message on public buildings vs billboards. You are still exposed to the message. How does one or the other change your life a single iota? It doesn’t. Yet, you will award this girl from taking away a moral message while berating those who would erect a cross memorial on a fire station. > Most Americans find that distasteful. public property is paid for by all the people not just one religious group. It’s really that simple. btw; the moral message could have remained without references to religion. Why do Christians insist on public displays of their belief in God, while similtaneously behaving very badly. Christians have exercised the right to ignore gays for many years, but now society is forcing the agenda on us. I can’t even read Green Lantern or Archie comics now without being forced to accept a homosexual message. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/628 "2012-06-06T13:18:58Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > No, no, that’s the openly gay one. [This](http://www.hyperborea.org/flash/bigimages/hal-greenlantern.jpg)is the totes straight one 😉 Sooo, is GEEPERS himself a self-suppressed gay? I mean if he liked pictures of muscular men in latex that much? I, like other normal men, never saw the atraction of those super-hero comics. Now I understand though why it had an attraction to _some_ men. It would explain some of the anger and blind hatred inside him. GEEPERS, were you a fan of Kirk Douglas as well? ---
**Author:** ![GEEPERS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c89c15/32.png) [@GEEPERS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GEEPERS)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/629 "2012-06-06T13:19:02Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > People are allowed. But the school is a GOVERNMENT institution and therefore it should not be advocating ANY religeon. It is promoting a moral message. It is not “establishing” an official religion of the school. > [@msmith537](#): > > Bullshit. It hasn’t “harmed” anyone. Only merely hurting future generations who may not be taught such basic morals at home. > [@msmith537](#): > > From the Constitution: > First Amendment: > American Constitutional law is designed to create a separation of church and state. The government is not to interfere with religion and religion is not to interfere with government. And by doing this, the rights of people are protected both for religeon and from it. > > When the state, acting through one of it’s institutions (in this case a school) incorporates symbolism of a particular religion (in this case Christianity), it becomes an advocate of that religeon and implicitly makes it “official”. > > And from my experience, the mentality of many right wing religious types is that they simply do not grasp the concept. When they hear “freedom of religion”, they assume it to mean the toleration of all other religions that are not Christ-based and which are usually a local minority. In their minds, Christianity is the de-facto state religeon and should be treated as such. 1. Separation of church and state appears nowhere in the Constitution. 2. The school is not forcing students to practice Christianity. The problem is the 1st amendment keeps getting reinterpreted to fit secular agendas. Supreme Court Justice Justice Joseph Story, founder of the Harvard Law school, had quite a different perspective: \*“the real object of the [First A]mendment was not to countenance, much less to advance, Mahometanism, or Judaism, or infidelity, by prostrating Christianity; but to exclude all rivalry among Christian sects.” \* He also believe an atheist society could not be civilized: _“…the great doctrines of religion, the being, and attributes, and providence of one Almighty God; the responsibility to him for all our actions, founded upon moral freedom and accountability; a future state of rewards and punishments; the cultivation of all the personal, social, and benevolent virtues; — these never can be a matter of indifference in any well ordered community. It is, indeed, difficult to conceive, how any civilized society can well exist without them. And at all events, it is impossible for those, who believe in the truth of Christianity, as a divine revelation, to doubt, that it is the especial duty of government to foster, and encourage it among all the citizens and subjects. This is a point wholly distinct from that of the right of private judgment in matters of religion, and of the freedom of public worship according to the dictates of one’s conscience.”_ He also did not believe in separation of church and state _“Probably at the time of the adoption of the constitution, and of the amendment to it, now under consideration, the general, if not the universal, sentiment in America was, that Christianity ought to receive encouragement from the state, so far as was not incompatible with the private rights of conscience, and the freedom of religious worship. An attempt to level all religions, and to make it a matter of state policy to hold all in utter indifference, would have created universal disapprobation, if not universal indignation.”_ So why should I reject the interpretation of this highly esteemed Supreme Court justice in favor of modern interpretations? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/630 "2012-06-06T13:25:30Z")
Joseph Story wasn’t the founder of Harvard Law School. Did you make up the rest, too? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/631 "2012-06-06T13:26:11Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Christians have exercised the right to ignore gays for many years, but now society is forcing the agenda on us. I can’t even read Green Lantern or Archie comics now without being forced to accept a homosexual message. As long as gays stayed in the closet and didn’t ask to be treated like equal human beings people could ignore their bigotry and the dispicable indoctrination of society agasint gays. Believe me, that’s not a source of pride. It sounds so much like “as long as blacks knew their place we have no problem with them” doesn’t it. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/632 "2012-06-06T13:39:01Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > If the poster wasn’t speaking for all atheists, why didn’t someone correct him? No one seemed to have any problem with his extremely hostile rhetoric towards religion. Wait, weren’t you them one who said it was ignorant to point out a few examples and claim that represents the entire group? Yup, that was you all right. > [@](#): > > The message is that Christians must go against the clear teachings in the Bible, or we are being a bigot. Again, you avoid the clarity of reality. Christianity has never agreed on what the bible teaches amd has clearly and historically been wrong on cases where social change and equality were the issues. Christians use thier personal interpretation of the Bible to justify all sorts nonsense. The same arguments being used against SSM are now being used to oppose interracial marriage not that long ago. Now , few intelligent Christians would argue that interracial marriage is agasint the teachings of the Bible. Believers of any stripe are forced by the world to examine thier beliefs. The whole idea that long held beliefs can’t be mistaken is an emotional reaction that people who really seek the truth ought to guard agasint. ---
**Author:** ![GEEPERS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c89c15/32.png) [@GEEPERS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GEEPERS)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/633 "2012-06-06T13:40:51Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > As violent and outspoken that christians become when challenges to their faith occurs like this, there is no reason to wonder why religion should be illegal in the public eye. Someone disagrees with a fairytale and here come the death threats to a teenager, who seems to be much more intelligent than any believer I’ve ever met. > > Those who think innocent school banners like this are NOT offensive are simply not intelligent. I’m American, I pay taxes, and I don’t support any aid to ridiculous ideas as to upholding barbaric ideas as to even suggesting to others that there’s a god who loves us. > > Please show me this god, and it better not be called Yahweh, Jehovah or Jesus. > > Now, if it’s name is Homer Simpson, I might consent to that. > > Thing is, as soon as these ideas are even discussed at some school board, student council, whatever, it should be shot down. Why do the closed minded insist on thrusting illogical ideas down our throats in what many seem to be thought of as an innocent school banner? It’s not innocent. It’s disgusting to even have the word “god” mentioned on money, courtrooms and in political debates. > > Be human first. YOU are first. Not some misogynistic, closed-minded set of rituals you’ve never studied but still believe in as a “path.” 100% support for Jessica. None for anyone who ever put a nickel in a collection plate. You are incredibly ignorant about Christians. True Christians don’t make death threats and advocate violence. You take a few extreme examples and stereotype all religious people. Yes, let’s just make CHristianity illegal and totally rip up the Constitution huh? You know what’s really disgusting? Sin is disgusting. Taking pleasure in cutting someone down is disgusting. Treating people with disrespect and believing you are superior to others is disgusting. All traits that atheists exhibit boldly on internet forums. By the way, most of us believe there is a God, and have strong reasons for our beliefs. You can call it a fairy tale all you want, but that won’t change reality. ---
**Author:** ![Eutychus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Eutychus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eutychus)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/634 "2012-06-06T13:42:29Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > What I do care about is the right of free speech. People should be allowed to follow their own choice of religion, or no religion, even in schools. They should be allowed to pray, if they want to. Some people might find that prayer inspirational. They ought to be allowed to hang up a banner. I fully support their moral right to do so. I could almost go along with you IF it was a person who wanted to hang a banner AND if all religions were allowed to hang banners. However, that was not the case. The school, a function of the government, specifically commissioned a school prayer to be written and the school, a function of the government, hung it on the wall. That’s what makes it against the constitution. > [@](#): > > What a selfish little brat. Do you know her? I’m acquainted with the family and can assure you that that is not true. Nor is it true that she is just doing it for attention. She truly does believe in what she is standing for. ---
**Author:** ![Eutychus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Eutychus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eutychus)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/635 "2012-06-06T13:43:41Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Treating people with disrespect and believing you are superior to others is disgusting. All traits that atheists exhibit boldly on internet forums. Pot … meet kettle. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/636 "2012-06-06T13:45:44Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Only merely hurting future generations who may not be taught such basic morals at home. If it’s the “morals” taught by this piece of bland pap you and the folks at the school’s council were concerned about, you would have had no objection with simply editing the “our heavenly father” and “amen” pieces. For some reason, those two bits are really, really important to you. Why is that ? > [@](#): > > 1. The school is not forcing students to practice Christianity. The school is “forcing” students to believe that the school (and thus, by extension, the establishment, the state, the nation) endorses and backs the notion of there being a “heavenly father” that should be prayed to, and who directly intervenes in the life of students (“help us be this, help us do that”). If that’s not forcing a religious practice upon them, I don’t know what is. > [@](#): > > So why should I reject the interpretation of this highly esteemed Supreme Court justice in favor of modern interpretations? First, one notes that by throwing your lot with that argument, you’ve finally abandoned the disingenuous lines of argument that “it’s not a christian banner” and “putting up that banner is not establishment of religion”. GOOD. You have now revealed your true colours, that is “establishing Christianism is good, it’s all those other religions that are bad”. Which, well, good luck with that one, dude. But to answer the question I quoted: I dunno dude, why do you favour modern interpretations of the Supreme Court when it comes to, say, slavery over highly esteemed previous opinions, viz. that it’s AWESOME ? Well, there you go. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/637 "2012-06-06T13:45:58Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > By the way, most of us believe there is a God, and have strong reasons for our beliefs. You can call it a fairy tale all you want, but that won’t change reality. Your repeated _argumentum ad populum_ is one of the very reasons that it is essential for the government to not endorse a particular religion. I’m sure you don’t understand this, but I thought I would try to point it out in desperate hopes that you might. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/638 "2012-06-06T13:48:31Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > You are incredibly ignorant about Christians. True Christians don’t make death threats and advocate violence. You take a few extreme examples and stereotype all religious people. > > Yes, let’s just make CHristianity illegal and totally rip up the Constitution huh? You know what’s really disgusting? Sin is disgusting. Taking pleasure in cutting someone down is disgusting. Treating people with disrespect and believing you are superior to others is disgusting. All traits that atheists exhibit boldly on internet forums. > By the way, most of us believe there is a God, and have strong reasons for our beliefs. You can call it a fairy tale all you want, but that won’t change reality. “True Christians” would not do hateful things. Okay, I can agree with that. How do you address people who obviously believe themselves to be “True Christians” but who feel obligated to act in a hateful manner, those who sincerely believe that The Lord wants them to be exclusionary. elitist and intolerant of others? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/639 "2012-06-06T13:52:44Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > I’ve skimmed through this thread, and I’ve seen this claim made over and over. > > It is quite patently wrong. > Point 1 - It isn’t from The Lord’s prayer. The actual phrase is usually translated as “our father who art in heaven.” That is a different phrase. Note how the words come in a different order? > > Point 2 - The Lord’s prayer was created by a Jew, delivered to a crowd of Jews, and recorded by Jews. Not exactly “specifically Christian” is it? > > Point 3 - The term “[heavenly father](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sky_father)” or similar phrases is common to a great many religions. Jupiter, Zeus, Osiris, Odin and Shiva were/are called “father” by their followers, and all live in a place whose name might be translated as “heaven.” You can even find the specific phrase “heavenly father” for some of them if you look. > > Point 4 - contrary to some claims in this thread, there are [at least some](http://www.spiritual-healing-artwork-4u.com/Allah-Spiritual-Father.html)Muslims who say that Allah is the “heavenly father.” > > Lets have no more of this nonsense, please. It isn’t a specifically Christian prayer. There’s a significant fifference between “it isn’t nessecarily” and it’s obvious inttent isn’t there? Aside from that , it doesn’t matter if some other religions can still identify with the wording. It’s still doesn’t belong in a public school. ---
**Author:** ![GEEPERS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c89c15/32.png) [@GEEPERS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GEEPERS)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/640 "2012-06-06T13:52:47Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Joseph Story wasn’t the founder of Harvard Law School. Did you make up the rest, too? If I’m wrong, prove it instead of making baseless statments like atheists usually do. I’m not making anything up. [http://conservapedia.com/Joseph\_Story](http://conservapedia.com/Joseph_Story) \*Joseph Story (1779-1845) was an Associate Justice of the United States Supreme Court and a founder of Harvard Law School. He was appointed to the Supreme Court in 1811 by the so-called “Father of our Constitution,” President James Madison. \* Now the onus is on you to prove that this website is dead wrong. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555.md?page=31) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555.md?page=33)