# Another Example of Atheists Destroying Christian's Rights **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 30, 2012, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555 "2012-05-30T16:52:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 34
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/661 "2012-06-06T14:38:46Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Yes, there’s a strong connection between Story and Harvard Law. Could anyone explain to us not from the US, why it would in any way be important who this Story fellar was or his connection to some university?. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/662 "2012-06-06T14:49:47Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > And atheist websites are not biased against Christians? Nobody required you to cite an atheist website. Conservapedia is such a laughably bad source in terms of both its quality and open biases that I don’t think I’ve ever seen anybody try to use it as a citation here. If you want people to take your arguments seriously and if you don’t want the staff to wonder if you are just trying to annoy other posters, use good cites and read them carefully. Do at least the basics to avoid being completely wrong. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/663 "2012-06-06T14:50:08Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Could anyone explain to us not from the US, why it would in any way be important who this Story fellar was or his connection to some university?. Joseph Story served on the Supreme Court 200 years ago. He has stated opinions that are congenial to GEEPERS. Therefore, any and all decisions rendered by the Supreme Court in regards to the concept of Seperatio of Church and State should be considered null and void. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/664 "2012-06-06T14:55:18Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Could anyone explain to us not from the US, why it would in any way be important who this Story fellar was or his connection to some university?. He was a US Supreme Court justice; unlike those of many countries, US courts (and the Supreme Court in particular) shape law because they have the authority to strike down legislation which conflicts with the US Constitution. Harvard Law School is important because it’s where most of our Supreme Court justices went (including 6 of the current 9.) It’s the American Sorbonne, or Oxford, or whatever. It’s not really important in the context of this debate, but I corrected a factual error and **GEEPERS** got all shirty about it. Story is important because he shaped both Harvard and the Supreme Court’s views on several issues, including property rights. None of his well-known opinions have much to do with religious freedom, but there you go. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/665 "2012-06-06T14:59:21Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > The problem is the 1st amendment keeps getting reinterpreted to fit secular agendas. Supreme Court Justice Justice Joseph Story, founder of the Harvard Law school, had quite a different perspective: Thomas Jefferson, founder of the USA would say the both of your are wrong: “… I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between Church and State.” -Thomas Jefferson See my prior statement about people like you who are unable to wrap your brain around the concept. “uh…the problem is the First Amendment is being reinterpeted to fit secular agendas..” Yeah. Exactly. That 's what the term SECULAR means - “separate from religion”. Harvard is a private school. They can do whatever they want with respect to religion. FYI, Harvard Law School was founded in 1817, ten years before Joseph Story ran it. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/666 "2012-06-06T14:59:41Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Supreme Court Justice Justice Joseph Story, founder of the Harvard Law school, had quite a different perspective: > \*“the real object of the [First A]mendment was not to countenance, much less to advance, Mahometanism, or Judaism, or infidelity, by prostrating Christianity; but to exclude all rivalry among Christian sects.” \* > He also believe an atheist society could not be civilized: > > _“…the great doctrines of religion, the being, and attributes, and providence of one Almighty God; the responsibility to him for all our actions, founded upon moral freedom and accountability; a future state of rewards and punishments; the cultivation of all the personal, social, and benevolent virtues; — these never can be a matter of indifference in any well ordered community. It is, indeed, difficult to conceive, how any civilized society can well exist without them. And at all events, it is impossible for those, who believe in the truth of Christianity, as a divine revelation, to doubt, that it is the especial duty of government to foster, and encourage it among all the citizens and subjects. This is a point wholly distinct from that of the right of private judgment in matters of religion, and of the freedom of public worship according to the dictates of one’s conscience.”_ > He also did not believe in separation of church and state > > _“Probably at the time of the adoption of the constitution, and of the amendment to it, now under consideration, the general, if not the universal, sentiment in America was, that Christianity ought to receive encouragement from the state, so far as was not incompatible with the private rights of conscience, and the freedom of religious worship. An attempt to level all religions, and to make it a matter of state policy to hold all in utter indifference, would have created universal disapprobation, if not universal indignation.”_ > > So why should I reject the interpretation of this highly esteemed Supreme Court justice in favor of modern interpretations? > [@GEEPERS](#): > > \*Joseph Story (1779-1845) was an Associate Justice of the United States Supreme Court and a founder of Harvard Law School. He was appointed to the Supreme Court in 1811 by the so-called “Father of our Constitution,” President James Madison. \* Well, we have Joseph Story’s take on things. What about the guy who is, as you say, the “so-called Father of the Constitution”? What did _he_ think about the idea that “Christianity ought to receive encouragement from the state”? > [@](#): > > Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other Sects? that the same authority which can force a citizen to contribute three pence only of his property for the support of any one establishment, may force him to conform to any other establishment in all cases whatsoever? [James Madison, _Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments_, 20 June 1785](http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/amendI_religions43.html) > [@](#): > > Notwithstanding the general progress made within the two last centuries in favour of this branch of liberty, & the full establishment of it, in some parts of our Country, there remains in others a strong bias towards the old error, that without some sort of alliance or coalition between Govt. & Religion neither can be duly supported. Such indeed is the tendency to such a coalition, and such its corrupting influence on both the parties, that the danger cannot be too carefully guarded agst. And in a Govt. of opinion, like ours, the only effectual guard must be found in the soundness and stability of the general opinion on the subject. Every new & successful example therefore of a perfect separation between ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance. And I have no doubt that every new example, will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt. will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together. [James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, 10 July 1822](http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/amendI_religions66.html) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/667 "2012-06-06T15:06:51Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > None of his well-known opinions have much to do with religious freedom, but there you go. The views of a man who died 170 years ago also don’t tell you very much about real-life atheists and “Mahometans.” It should go without saying that not every Supreme Court justice has agreed on how to interpret the First Amendment and separation of church and state, but we can still talk about how those ideas have been interpreted over the years, and in more recent generations they have not been interpreted in a way Story might have agreed with. A teenager in Rhode Island didn’t wake up one day and change everybody’s interpretation of the Constitution. In fact, Christians contributed a great deal to current interpretations. Unless we’re going to discuss how the law is currently interpreted and applied - something **GEEPERS** doesn’t seem interested in understanding because it destroys his position - I don’t see why Story matters either. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/668 "2012-06-06T15:19:34Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Unless we’re going to discuss how the law is currently interpreted and applied - something **GEEPERS** doesn’t seem interested in understanding because it destroys his position - I don’t see why Story matters either. Geez, you lot won’t even spot a guy a blatant, transparent appeal to authority. Talk about unsporting. ---
**Author:** ![GEEPERS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c89c15/32.png) [@GEEPERS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GEEPERS)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/669 "2012-06-06T15:40:36Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > Joseph Story served on the Supreme Court 200 years ago. He has stated opinions that are congenial to GEEPERS. Therefore, any and all decisions rendered by the Supreme Court in regards to the concept of Seperatio of Church and State should be considered null and void. He was friends with James Madison, the "Father of the Constitution”. It’s reasonable to assume that he would have a much better idea of the original intent of the 1st amendment than some modern day judge who caters to secular humanism. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/670 "2012-06-06T15:46:59Z")
GEEPERS, Clearly at the SDMB our belief is the majority belief, and you’re just being a rude brat. You should just be quiet with your minority opinion. Sincerely, The Moral Majority ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/671 "2012-06-06T15:47:50Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > He was friends with James Madison, the "Father of the Constitution”. It’s reasonable to assume that he would have a much better idea of the original intent of the 1st amendment than some modern day judge who caters to secular humanism. Go read the 2 **MEBuckner** quotes that cite from Madison. Madison who may, or may not, have known what Madison was thinking. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/672 "2012-06-06T15:52:03Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > “True Christians” would not do hateful things. Okay, I can agree with that. Wow, I had been thinking that to GEEPERS, a “True Christian” excluded anyone who was not GEEPERS. Now I see that he even excludes himself! ---
**Author:** ![Sacrilegium](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f05b48/32.png) [@Sacrilegium](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sacrilegium)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/673 "2012-06-06T16:01:17Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > Wow, I had been thinking that to GEEPERS, a “True Christian” excluded anyone who was not GEEPERS. Now I see that he even excludes himself! Jesus and God are excluded too. God, especially in the OT, was one violent guy. Jesus came not to bring peace, but a sword. That whole thing with the pigs was dickish too. I don’t think either of them are worthy to be called True Christians. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/674 "2012-06-06T16:04:22Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > He was friends with James Madison, the "Father of the Constitution”. It’s reasonable to assume that he would have a much better idea of the original intent of the 1st amendment than some modern day judge who caters to secular humanism. “Original Intent” is a wonderful concept, and historically interesting, but the Constitution is a living document, designed to be amended and interpreted as American society learns and grows. It must reflect and guide our current population and ideals or it is irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/675 "2012-06-06T16:13:41Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > He was friends with James Madison, the "Father of the Constitution”. It’s reasonable to assume that he would have a much better idea of the original intent of the 1st amendment than some modern day judge who caters to secular humanism. Setting aside the fact that Madison had other ideas entirely (see \*\*MEBuckner \*\*quotes), did he also have much better ideas of the original intent of the Constitution than the folks who tacked the 13th Amendment to it ? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/676 "2012-06-06T16:14:24Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And state and federal laws to the contrary, I have the right to walk into your home and take anything I want. So SCOTUS is beyond all criticism because obviously if you disagree with their decisions in one area of law, you obviously are advocating anarchy? ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/677 "2012-06-06T16:23:06Z")
> [@Sacrilegium](#): > > Jesus and God are excluded too. God, especially in the OT, was one violent guy. Jesus came not to bring peace, but a sword. That whole thing with the pigs was dickish too. I don’t think either of them are worthy to be called True Christians. God, in his official capacity, often finds it necessary to perform acts which he personally abhors. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/678 "2012-06-06T16:28:19Z")
**GEEPERS** , I don’t think anybody is arguing that all judges and legal scholars throughout history have interpreted the First Amendment and the concept of separation of church and state the same way. They haven’t. But the bottom line is that if you want to argue that the banner does not establish a religion and that the judge got it wrong, you have to look at how the Constitution is applied today and what the law says today. And according to the law, it’s pretty obvious this thing flunks. The wording is overtly Christian and the banner was put up with the express purpose of replacing the recitation of The Lord’s Prayer, an act that the Supreme Court had already ruled an unconstitutional establishment of religion. Not only that, the wording of the banner and the Lord’s Prayer are nearly the same: “our heavenly father” compared to “our father who art in heaven.” The Lord’s Prayer usesa slightly wordier way of addressing the prayer to the same exact deity. The moral message of the banner is the same without “our heavenly father,” and those words were not added to the banner by accident. The fact that believers of other religions could say “our heavenly father” is a dodge because they _don’t_ say that - only Christians do. That’s a pretty good reason the other religious believers don’t say it, in fact. They’re not Christians. Since they don’t pray that way and Christians do, that should tell you that the banner’s wording takes the form of a Christian prayer. ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/679 "2012-06-06T16:28:47Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > What “atheist websites” are you referring to? Is anything that isn’t explicitly Christian an “atheist website”? If that’s true, then I’m declaring victory right now. Drinks are on me. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/680 "2012-06-06T16:30:42Z")
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