# Another Example of Atheists Destroying Christian's Rights **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 30, 2012, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555 "2012-05-30T16:52:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/81 "2012-05-30T20:26:22Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > Although, if “heavenly” means purity and holy, name number four covers “heavenly”. It doesn’t mean “in heaven,” though. Please don’t twist yourself into knots trying to justify a statement that is completely wrong on the facts. “Our heavenly father” is used only by Christians and is especially popular among Mormons. “Our father who art in heaven” is the beginning of the Lord’s Prayer and the phrase “heavenly father” is attributed to Jesus himself several times in both Matthew and Luke. It’s not used by anybody else. The fact that it could be applied generically by other people who believe in a male God and a heaven (which arguably excludes Jews) is beside the point. ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/82 "2012-05-30T20:26:47Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Oh but it’s quite ok for my taxes to go and support a school that offers no moral creed and teaches atheistic ideology that God does not exist? So, you’re saying that it’s ok for them to teach obvious-even-to-a-5-year-old Christianity using tax dollars, but not Atheism? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/83 "2012-05-30T20:29:44Z")
> [@hotflungwok](#): > > So, you’re saying that it’s ok for them to teach obvious-even-to-a-5-year-old Christianity using tax dollars, but not Atheism? I guess so- because there are lots of Christians and for some reason none of them complained about it. If something is popular, people who don’t like it should just keep their mouths shut regardless of what the law says. Otherwise they’ll be outcasts and bad things might happen to them because nobody likes a complainer. Don’t rock the boat. I’m not threatening anybody. I’m just saying. By the way, **GEEPERS** , did you have time to look into that “tyranny of the majority” concept? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/84 "2012-05-30T20:36:00Z")
> [@](#): > > …Help us to be good sports and smile when we lose as well as when we win. Or should it just say “permit us to bitch and moan when we lose”? ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/85 "2012-05-30T20:38:00Z")
> [@hotflungwok](#): > > So, you’re saying that it’s ok for them to teach obvious-even-to-a-5-year-old Christianity using tax dollars, but not Atheism? They shouldnt be teaching either. ---
**Author:** ![GEEPERS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c89c15/32.png) [@GEEPERS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GEEPERS)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/86 "2012-05-30T20:40:36Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > How would you feel about a big banner in a school that said: “There is no god, we are all on our own, so figure out how to get along with each other without pretending there is an invisible man in the sky!” > > Would that banner bother you? Would you think it was an appropriate message for a public school to display? If it was taken down would that be “destroying atheists’ rights?” Why, or why not? Since it has no value unlike this banner that was taken down, I don’t think it would be appropriate, but I wouldn’t really protest as long as I could put up an equally sized banner proclaiming that God is the author of life, and there is hope for you. ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/87 "2012-05-30T20:42:09Z")
Geepers, where did ya get those peepers. ---
**Author:** ![B.Serum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/b.serum/32/14266_2.png) [@B.Serum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/B.Serum)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/88 "2012-05-30T20:42:53Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > And yes, Christians are really tired of **traditions** being destroyed because a single atheist makes a big stink about it… (bolding mine) Please be aware you are conflating “rights” and “traditions.” I’d also like to clarify that it’s not those damn atheists mandating the removal of the banner, it’s the Constitution. An atheist merely called attention to the flouting of a law. I have no doubt Christians are frustrated that their domination of society is being trimmed back from the 97% mark they have enjoyed for so long, but it may comfort you to remember a few facts: You can pray to yourself anywhere you like. I’m sure you’ll agree that God is powerful enough that He can hear your prayer even though it’s not painted in 5-inch letters for mere humans to see. There are public institutions specially created for academics: these are called public schools and there are about 100,000 of them in the U.S. There are specialized religious institutions created for worship: these are called churches and there are about 500,000 of them in the U.S. (and that’s only counting the Christian ones). That is to say Christian churches outnumber public schools by a factor of 5:1. Now stop bitching about how your “rights” have been obliterated. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/89 "2012-05-30T20:44:42Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > **Since it has no value unlike this banner that was taken down,** I don’t think it would be appropriate, but I wouldn’t really protest as long as I could put up an equally sized banner proclaiming that God is the author of life, and there is hope for you. And the value of this banner is? I’m betting it’s everything AFTER the mention of “heavenly father.” As for traditions, the Romans had one I think highly of that was referenced earlier in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/90 "2012-05-30T20:45:27Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > It doesn’t mean “in heaven,” though. Please don’t twist yourself into knots trying to justify a statement that is completely wrong on the facts. “Our heavenly father” is used only by Christians and is especially popular among Mormons. “Our father who art in heaven” is the beginning of the Lord’s Prayer and the phrase “heavenly father” is attributed to Jesus himself several times in both Matthew and Luke. It’s not used by anybody else. You seem to have taken up the assumption that I am trying to play a “gothcha” game. Please believe that I am not. I understood that there were a lot of flowery honorifics in Islam for Allah, however I did not know what they all were. You made a definitive statement that no other religion except Christianity uses the “heavenly father”. My first question, prefaced by “/hijack”, was along the lines of “are you sure?”. You seemed certain, and **Dangerosa** confirms it. I accept that. Now my ignorance has been fought. My post number 80 is me playing word games, and was intended in jest. (Hence the smiley.) To make it more clear: I am not attempting to “take GEEPERS side”. I wouldn’t have cared whether the banner stays or goes. I agree with the sentiment expressed as “If the banner was not something that promoted one religion over another, then why was it’s removal declared an attack (a First Amendment infringement) on Christianity?”. > [@](#): > > The fact that it could be applied generically by other people who believe in a male God and a heaven (which arguably excludes Jews) is beside the point. Why does it exclude the Jews? No heaven in Judaism? ---
**Author:** ![GEEPERS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c89c15/32.png) [@GEEPERS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GEEPERS)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/91 "2012-05-30T20:46:44Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Um, not all of the graves at Arlington have crosses. You know we’ve had Jewish, Muslim and _GASP_ even atheist soldiers as well as others. > > Why, just look at all the available flavors to choose from for your tombstone: > > [United States Department of Veterans Affairs emblems for headstones and markers - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_Veterans_Affairs_emblems_for_headstones_and_markers) But here we have a federal public cementary that is (correct me if I’m wrong) funded by tax payer money and displaying religious symbols. Why is that ok, but you can’t have cross memorials on government land? Is it suddenly ok if the same land has a Star of David memorial? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/92 "2012-05-30T20:49:21Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Funny how the atheist view of the 1st admendment always slates in favor of the vocal minority of atheists Of course, no. The law is quite clear in this respect, and you’re obviously wrong. Of course, equally wrong is that you’ve drawn the world into only Christians and atheists and, bizarrely, you can’t conceive of the fact that multiple religions would rather not have your Christianity rammed down their throats as part of a school’s official statements. Of course a banner in a school with a Christian message is establishing Christianity as the official religion of the school. Your bullshit that “heavenly father” is somehow ambiguous is something so obviously false that I’m surprised you could actually voice it. You’re not fooling anybody, at all. We all know that “heavenly father” is an exclusively Christian name. Of course, you know that. Which is why despite your bullshit claim that it’s “ambiguous”, you claim at the same time that removing it from a school’s pronouncements is an attack on “Christianity”. Your argument is profoundly slimy; when you want it to be “our heavenly father” isn’t at all ambiguous, and removing it is an obvious assault on Christianity. When you want it to be, “our heavenly father” is totally ambiguous and we can’t say that it’s Christian, at all. > [@GEEPERS](#): > > Are you going to fuss because Arlington National Cementary has crosses on the tombstones? This is a substantially disingenuous request. Identifying personal beliefs, per personal request, is not an endorsement of religion. The fact that all views are allowed to be expressed on tombstones removes the possibility that one is being referenced. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/93 "2012-05-30T20:55:27Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > “Heavenly father” is ambigious and can apply to any faith that believes in a deity. Then why is this decision “Destroying Christian’s Rights”? Those are your words, the very title of this thread, declaring that banner an example of Christian morals\*. Is there a reason you didn’t reflect how ambiguous the banner is when describing who’s rights are being trampled? \*Well, except for the part about being kind to classmates, being good sports by smiling when you lose, and bringing credit to Cranston high school. Those parts are totally optional. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/94 "2012-05-30T20:57:33Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > But here we have a federal public cementary that is (correct me if I’m wrong) funded by tax payer money and displaying religious symbols. Why is that ok, but you can’t have cross memorials on government land? Is it suddenly ok if the same land has a Star of David memorial? It’s the endorsement of any particular religion that’s no good. No particular religion is being endorsed at Arlington and it’s clear that the religious symbols reflect the beliefs of the people interred, not the government itself. Or, to quote **FinnAgain** , who put it pretty well: > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Identifying personal beliefs, per personal request, is not an endorsement of religion. The fact that all views are allowed to be expressed on tombstones removes the possibility that one is being referenced. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/95 "2012-05-30T20:58:11Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Funny how the atheist view of the 1st admendment always slates in favor of the vocal minority of atheists instead of looking at the facts objectively. Protecting unpopular opinions is _the whole point_ of the First Amendment; popular opinions don’t need the protection, after all. > [@GEEPERS](#): > > A banner in school does not equate to establishing an official religion. “Heavenly father” is ambigious and can apply to any faith that believes in a deity. Nonsense, as has already been repeatedly pointed out. It’s a Christian exclusive term. > [@GEEPERS](#): > > And yes, Christians are really tired of traditions being destroyed because a single atheist makes a big stink about it. What’s next? Are you going to fuss because Arlington National Cementary has crosses on the tombstones? Arlington has a _multitude_ of symbols, including one for atheists. It’s not pushing a religion. The school equivalent would be a comparative religions class - which isn’t likely to happen in American public schools not because of those evil atheists, but because of Christians who freak out at the thought of anything but their particular version of Christianity being taught. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/96 "2012-05-30T20:58:29Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > And yes, Christians are really tired of traditions being destroyed because a single atheist makes a big stink about it. What’s next? Are you going to fuss because Arlington National Cementary has crosses on the tombstones? Are you going to demand that the US Marines get rid of article VI from their code of conduct? After all, it doesn’t support the atheist belief that there are no God/gods. You are allowed to practice your traditions at home, at church and any number of public venues. Why is it so important that your traditions be displayed in government instiutions that are payed for by the taxes of people who are often not Christian? And the real problem is that many Christians want schools to teach the “tradition” of their non-scientific bullshit. As long as it’s payed for by public funds, you can do whatever you want. But you shouldn’t expect the government to support your traditions. Now that said, I don’t think the banner is that big of a deal. It’s not like if a school had a statue of Apollo the sun god that meant they supported Greek polytheism. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/97 "2012-05-30T20:59:32Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Since it has no value unlike this banner that was taken down, I don’t think it would be appropriate, but I wouldn’t really protest as long as I could put up an equally sized banner proclaiming that God is the author of life, and there is hope for you. I would argue that my banner has a very important message: get along with each other without relying on the crutch that is religion, BUT I can see why it would be upsetting to folks who don’t share my point of view and I’m not so insecure in my world view that I have to cram it down other people’s throats. Wouldn’t it make better sense to just recognize that a public school is not an appropriate place to promote any theological point of view? I’m convinced that there is a type of Christianity in America that clings to the notion that it is being oppressed because it makes their lives purposeful, when in fact Christians in the US are so comfortable with their religion being the defacto state religion that they are genuinely shocked when people push back. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/98 "2012-05-30T21:00:11Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > But here we have a federal public cementary that is (correct me if I’m wrong) funded by tax payer money and displaying religious symbols. Why is that ok, but you can’t have cross memorials on government land? Is it suddenly ok if the same land has a Star of David memorial? Because the government isn’t choosing which display to put up, the families are. The displays do not reflect in any way the government deciding that one type of religion is the one that gets referenced. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/99 "2012-05-30T21:00:17Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > You seem to have taken up the assumption that I am trying to play a “gothcha” game. Please believe that I am not. > > I understood that there were a lot of flowery honorifics in Islam for Allah, however I did not know what they all were. > > You made a definitive statement that no other religion except Christianity uses the “heavenly father”. My first question, prefaced by “/hijack”, was along the lines of “are you sure?”. > > You seemed certain, and **Dangerosa** confirms it. I accept that. Now my ignorance has been fought. > > My post number 80 is me playing word games, and was intended in jest. (Hence the smiley.) > > To make it more clear: I am not attempting to “take GEEPERS side”. > > I wouldn’t have cared whether the banner stays or goes. I agree with the sentiment expressed as “If the banner was not something that promoted one religion over another, then why was it’s removal declared an attack (a First Amendment infringement) on Christianity?”. > > Why does it exclude the Jews? No heaven in Judaism? I wouldn’t say “no other religion”. There are lots of them out there. But Islam is not one of them. Nor would Hinduism or Buddhism use those words, at least not commonly. Judaism I’m not sure about, but we can knock three of the Big Five out for it being a common phrase. As our world gets more diverse, as more Hindus and Muslims and Buddhists (and atheists) go to school with traditionally Christian children, we need to be more sensitive to presenting faith in the mainstream. The easiest way to do this inside the public school system is to leave it out except in the pertinent History or maybe English lit classes, or the like. My daughter, a sixth grade atheist, had it out with the choir teacher over religious songs. There really isn’t any reason to sing Christian songs in public school choir, especially one where the social studies teacher decided to have a culture lesson at the beginning of the year and discovered that 10% of her class were atheists and 15% Muslim. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/100 "2012-05-30T21:04:38Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > But here we have a federal public cementary that is (correct me if I’m wrong) funded by tax payer money and displaying religious symbols. Why is that ok, but you can’t have cross memorials on government land? Is it suddenly ok if the same land has a Star of David memorial? First of all, you’re talking about religious symbols that those individuals and/or their families chose to put on their personal memorial tombstone. Who would disagree that a person has the right to put whatever they want on their tombstone? Of course that’s ok. But its completely different from constructing a Christian monument on government property. The taxpayers pay for that property. They pay for it to be whatever it is, a post office, city hall, whatever. They do not pay for it to be a Christian monument. If you want a taxpayer funded Christian monument, then try to get that passed in the legislature. But you don’t want to do that, you want to just claim that government property for your religion by sticking a cross on it, even though everyone paid for it, and you want your symbol to speak for every tax payer that pays for that land. But not every taxpayer wants to be behind that message. That’s why its not ok. Why then don’t you go around putting crosses on the front lawns of private homes? If its ok to put one on city hall, which I pay for part of, why isn’t it ok to put one on my lawn that I pay for all of? In both cases you’re putting your religious symbol on property that you don’t own. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555.md?page=6)