# Another Example of Atheists Destroying Christian's Rights **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 30, 2012, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555 "2012-05-30T16:52:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/121 "2012-05-30T23:12:00Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Atheists are not for freedom of religion which is clearly established in the 1st amendment. They want freedom from religion. So do you. If you don’t, then what you really want can’t legitimately be characterized as “freedom _of_ religion.” ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/122 "2012-05-30T23:52:54Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > So do you. If you don’t, then what you really want can’t legitimately be characterized as “freedom _of_ religion.” Yes. In the same way that you want to be free from being preached at by Jews, Mormons, Muslims or Budhists. What makes you think that just ebcause it is christianity, it is just fine for the little atheists to suck it up, after all, they are just lapsed christians …:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/123 "2012-05-30T23:53:08Z")
What I like is how the people who opposed the banner being torn down lent their support to the Muslims in Murfreesboro: [http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/\_news/2012/05/30/11958330-tennessee-mosque-work-continues-after-judge-voids-building-permit?lite](http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/30/11958330-tennessee-mosque-work-continues-after-judge-voids-building-permit?lite) ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/124 "2012-05-31T00:15:49Z")
> [@fumster](#): > > What I like is how the people who opposed the banner being torn down lent their support to the Muslims in Murfreesboro: [http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/\_news/2012/05/30/11958330-tennessee-mosque-work-continues-after-judge-voids-building-permit?lite](http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/30/11958330-tennessee-mosque-work-continues-after-judge-voids-building-permit?lite) I’m not seeing the connection to Rhode Island there, although The Stupid is certainly evident in that story: > [@](#): > > Mosque opponents have fought construction for two years, arguing that Islam is not a real religion deserving of First Amendment protections ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/125 "2012-05-31T00:16:03Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Broadly I agree with what **mlees** and **John Mace** posted. Or in other words, yes, I do. I’ve never seen any indication that the framers of the Constitution expected the First Amendment to interfere with the practice of state government working together with religion. I’ve certainly never seen any indication that they would want government buildings stripped of religious symbols or people censored when they try to pray at public events at _any_ level of government. Throughout most of American history, government employees practiced religion freely, public schools taught the Bible and held prayers, and government property contianed religious symbols, and the federal government did not intervene. As far as I know, the notion that the federal government had to censor all of these things was made up my judges fairly recently. James Madison who had something to do with the Constitution would disagree: “The establishment of the chaplainship to Congs is a palpable violation of equal rights, as well as of Constitutional principles: The tenets of the chaplains elected [by the majority shut the door of worship agst the members whose creeds & consciences forbid a participation in that of the majority. To say nothing of other sects, this is the case with that of Roman Catholics & Quakers who have always had members in one or both of the Legislative branches. Could a Catholic clergyman ever hope to be appointed a Chaplain! To say that his religious principles are obnoxious or that his sect is small, is to lift the veil at once and exhibit in its naked deformity the doctrine that religious truth is to be tested by numbers or that the major sects have a right to govern the minor” “If Religion consist in voluntary acts of individuals, singly, or voluntarily associated, and it be proper that public functionaries, as well as their Constituents shd discharge their religious duties, let them like their Constituents, do so at their own expense.” ---
**Author:** ![GEEPERS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c89c15/32.png) [@GEEPERS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GEEPERS)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/126 "2012-05-31T00:18:50Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I am a Christian. I go to church every Sunday, and I actively participate in my church’s ministries. And, speaking as a Christian, I think that banner is deeply offensive, and the attitudes behind it represent a great threat to Christianity. God gave us free will, and wants us to use it. It is no credit to a person to be a Christian because that’s mandated by the local government: People have to _choose_ to be Christian. And people can’t meaningfully make that choice unless they can also make the opposite choice. > > The actions of this young lady place her closer to what a Christian should be, than all of the people who call themselves Christians who are condemning her. I applaud her. Are you liberal as well? You must find the Bible greatly offensive as well since it promotes the same values. How can people choose to be Christians when the message must be hidden from public view? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/127 "2012-05-31T00:21:24Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Are you liberal as well? You must find the Bible greatly offensive as well since it promotes the same values. > > How can people choose to be Christians when the message must be hidden from public view? Indoctrination from birth. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/128 "2012-05-31T00:21:30Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Are you liberal as well? You must find the Bible greatly offensive as well since it promotes the same values. > > How can people choose to be Christians when the message must be hidden from public view? “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.” ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/129 "2012-05-31T00:22:02Z")
Hehe, Islam not a real religion. Now I’m curious about what’s a real one, what the metrics are. I’m guessing it’s going to be similar to Eddie Izzard’s colonialism sketch. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/130 "2012-05-31T00:24:32Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Are you liberal as well? You must find the Bible greatly offensive as well since it promotes the same values. > > How can people choose to be Christians when the message must be hidden from public view? Who is saying that it must be hidden from public view? My church has religious messages on public display all the time ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/131 "2012-05-31T00:30:26Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Are you liberal as well? You must find the Bible greatly offensive as well since it promotes the same values. > > How can people choose to be Christians when the message must be hidden from public view? The “message” need not be hidden from public view. You can have churches on Main Street, sir. You can buy or wear billboards if you like, own TV stations, tweet the Good News. You can rant on street corners even. The message has no place in public education. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/132 "2012-05-31T02:11:39Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Hehe, Islam not a real religion. Now I’m curious about what’s a real one, what the metrics are. I’m guessing it’s going to be similar to Eddie Izzard’s colonialism sketch. **GEEPERS** has made it pretty clear in previous threads; if you agree with **GEEPERS** in all ways, you are a Christian. If you don’t, you have “atheist values”. > [@GEEPERS](#): > > You must find the Bible greatly offensive as well since it promotes the same values. The Bible is a barbaric document, _written_ by barbarians that _promotes_ barbarism. So yes, I find it offensive, disgusting and evil. And the Bible most certainly doesn’t promote those feel-good platitudes. It promotes the kind of behavior we see in those Christians who are threatening a 16 year old with gang rape because she’s an unbeliever. ---
**Author:** ![Twoflower](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/twoflower/32/22_2.png) [@Twoflower](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Twoflower)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/133 "2012-05-31T02:17:29Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > How can people choose to be Christians when the message must be hidden from public view? But if [QUOTE=GEEPERS] the banner doesn’t even promote a specific religion. It is a simple creed for all students to follow regardless of their spiritual beliefs [/QUOTE] then this thread has nothing to do with the Christian message. So what’s the problem? ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/134 "2012-05-31T02:22:13Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Are you liberal as well? You must find the Bible greatly offensive as well since it promotes the same values. > > How can people choose to be Christians when the message must be hidden from public view? And that, in a nutshell, is why religion has no place in a public school. What is the public school doing providing any child with religious choices? Would Christians be happy if Tuesdays was “lets explore the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path” day" as long as Fridays were reserved for the Ten Commandments? (Wednesdays, of course, are Wiccan Rede day) so that all children can make an educated “choice.” ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/135 "2012-05-31T02:27:40Z")
> [@Twoflower](#): > > But if […]then this thread has nothing to do with the Christian message. So what’s the problem? And why is it, exactly, that GEEPERS can’t address let alone properly answer this? In his other threads, GEEPERS spends most of his time questioning the integrity of all his critics. Now, however, he claims that the exact same thing is both clearly and uniquely Christian and clearly non-religious, depending on whether or not it suits his purposes. What’s his argument really all about? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/136 "2012-05-31T02:29:14Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > The “message” need not be hidden from public view. You can have churches on Main Street, sir. You can buy or wear billboards if you like, own TV stations, tweet the Good News. You can rant on street corners even. Or in your home. The issue here is state endorsement or establishment of religion. Sorry, but yes, even a mildly worded prayer to “Our heavenly father” on a school banner counts from where I sit. The point is not that it’s grievously offensive. It’s that the state is not supposed to be in the business of expressing views on religion. It’s bad for government and bad for the free exercise of religion. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/137 "2012-05-31T02:32:49Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > James Madison who had something to do with the Constitution would disagree: > > “The establishment of the chaplainship to Congs is a palpable violation of equal rights, as well as of Constitutional principles: The tenets of the chaplains elected [by the majority shut the door of worship agst the members whose creeds & consciences forbid a participation in that of the majority. To say nothing of other sects, this is the case with that of Roman Catholics & Quakers who have always had members in one or both of the Legislative branches. Could a Catholic clergyman ever hope to be appointed a Chaplain! To say that his religious principles are obnoxious or that his sect is small, is to lift the veil at once and exhibit in its naked deformity the doctrine that religious truth is to be tested by numbers or that the major sects have a right to govern the minor” > > “If Religion consist in voluntary acts of individuals, singly, or voluntarily associated, and it be proper that public functionaries, as well as their Constituents shd discharge their religious duties, let them like their Constituents, do so at their own expense.” Well, that has nothing to do with the states, and it would seem that his was, by far, the minority view since the chaplain exists even today. But if your point was that some founders had that view, yes. But again, if it was not a minority view, then it seems strange that it never held force. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/138 "2012-05-31T02:40:28Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > How can people choose to be Christians when the message must be hidden from public view? Excuse me? Is this an issue I’m supposed to be concerned about? I’m supposed to be worried that my tax dollars, my government, isn’t working hard enough to promote Christianity? The poor Christians have to recruit members all by their lonesome, without schools and government funded displays to help? ---
**Author:** ![shy\_guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a6a055/32.png) [@shy\_guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shy_guy)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/139 "2012-05-31T02:42:38Z")
I’d settle just for knowing what rights GEEPERS alleges are being violated. Actual rights, that is. It isn’t at all clear to me that GEEPERS realizes that individual students can pray and discuss their faith to their heart’s content (without disrupting school), but that doesn’t mean the school itself can endorse a religion by way of a banner. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555/140 "2012-05-31T02:44:02Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Well, that has nothing to do with the states, and it would seem that his was, by far, the minority view since the chaplain exists even today. But if your point was that some founders had that view, yes. But again, if it was not a minority view, then it seems strange that it never held force. It seemed to me that ITR was claiming the idea that the government at any level ought not be spending money on religious expression was a new one; my cite was intended to demonstrate that on the contrary, it was quite old. I agree that Madison’s view was a minority view - but the fact that he was a popular political figure in spite of holding radical views suggests a significant portion of the population did not consider such views to be inconsistent with good character or good governance. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-example-of-atheists-destroying-christians-rights/623555.md?page=8)