# Another filmed police encounter (Hammond, IN) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 7, 2014, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-filmed-police-encounter-hammond-in/700645 "2014-10-07T13:23:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2014, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-filmed-police-encounter-hammond-in/700645/181 "2014-10-07T19:43:51Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So you acknowledge that the cops were following the law here. > > That’s good to know. Why the fuck do posters keep engaging with this idiot? And yes, I’m one of them, so I fully admit that I’m just as much to blame. But Jesus Christ, enough with the \*\*Smapti \*\*Show already. It sucked when it premiered, and it gets worse with every episode. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2014, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-filmed-police-encounter-hammond-in/700645/182 "2014-10-07T19:43:54Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > He was coherent. He repeatedly shouts that he doesn’t know what’s going on, uses “operationing” as a verb, and drops thoughts mid-sentence. > [@](#): > > Further, calling a black man “it” and someone who “looks like a dumbass” doesn’t exactly portray you in the best light. And there goes the boy who cried racism yet again. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2014, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-filmed-police-encounter-hammond-in/700645/183 "2014-10-07T19:48:18Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If it was, though, then the law should be changed. So even _if_ the cops are acting lawfully, they’re still wrong? Damned if you do, damned if you don’t… ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2014, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-filmed-police-encounter-hammond-in/700645/184 "2014-10-07T19:52:25Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar. [ul] [li]That’s not honey.[/li][li]There’s a little on your chin.[/li][/ul] ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2014, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-filmed-police-encounter-hammond-in/700645/185 "2014-10-07T19:55:06Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So even _if_ the cops are acting lawfully, they’re still wrong? > > Damned if you do, damned if you don’t… You’re an imbecile. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2014, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-filmed-police-encounter-hammond-in/700645/186 "2014-10-07T19:57:46Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Why the fuck do posters keep engaging with this idiot? And yes, I’m one of them, so I fully admit that I’m just as much to blame. > > But Jesus Christ, enough with the \*\*Smapti \*\*Show already. It sucked when it premiered, and it gets worse with every episode. Serious question: how do you put people on your ignore list? ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2014, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-filmed-police-encounter-hammond-in/700645/187 "2014-10-07T19:58:41Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > You keep talking about “obeying the law.” Not all laws are created equal. > [@Smapti](#): > > I don’t follow. Really? My point is that a person driving without his/her seat belt on is committing a lesser crime than a person who commits murder. We even have classifications written right into our system to differentiate between these kinds of things. My apologies if it was an unclear point. > [@Eonwe](#): > > People who commit moving violations are not lawbreakers in a meaningful sense of the word. > [@Smapti](#): > > It’s a law, isn’t it? And they’re breaking it, are they not? Sure. But see above. I’m going to go out on a limb and say that 100% of American drivers have committed multiple moving violations. Calling all those people lawbreakers or criminals is meaningless if you’re describing _everyone_, and then making judgment calls based on that classification. > [@Eonwe](#): > > I mean, I get what you’re saying, but when you define every human being with a driver’s license as a lawbreaker, then what’s the point of the term? > [@Smapti](#): > > I do no such thing. Millions of Americans drive lawfully every day. No they don’t. Not all the time. And neither do you. It takes one neglected right turn signal, one unnoticed burnt light, one stop beyond the limit-line/edge of the cross-walk to commit a traffic crime. And, once you’ve committed a crime, you’re a criminal. I guess. > [@Eonwe](#): > > If I hadn’t driven without my seat belt off, or without the burnt-out tail light then I would have nothing to fear? > [@Smapti](#): > > You would have no fear of being pulled over for driving with your seatbelt off or with a burned-out taillight. That’s not the kind of fear we’re talking about. We’re talking about the fear of being hit/tased by the police. Don’t pretend like you don’t know what this conversation is even about. > [@Eonwe](#): > > I brought the fear of the lawgivers on myself and I deserve whatever I get? > [@Smapti](#): > > More or less. How you can agree with the “whatever I get” part of that is baffling to me, when it is completely open-ended and undefined. > [@Eonwe](#): > > I’m not saying that violence is never the answer, but just because the police want something doesn’t mean they have the right to tase me into compliance. > [@Smapti](#): > > It is not reasonable to expect the police to sit and wait for minutes or hours while more important business is occurring for one guy to decide he feels like cooperating with the law. Why not? And, isn’t dealing with this situation the definition of their “important business”? If the police had truly more important things to do, shouldn’t they be doing them in the first place instead of pulling someone over for a seat belt violation? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2014, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-filmed-police-encounter-hammond-in/700645/188 "2014-10-07T20:00:25Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Serious question: how do you put people on your ignore list? It’s under User CP (top left of the bar, same line as the search link) under the Networking side tab. [Here is a link.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/profile.php?do=ignorelist) ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2014, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-filmed-police-encounter-hammond-in/700645/189 "2014-10-07T20:02:05Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Did you or did you not spend several pages crying about the “unlawful” and “racist” actions of the cops who non-violently detained Danielle Watts? There is no way to detain someone “non-violently”, just like it’s impossible for a “non-violent rape” to occur. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2014, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-filmed-police-encounter-hammond-in/700645/190 "2014-10-07T20:05:34Z")
Forget it, Jake; it’s **Smapti** town. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2014, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-filmed-police-encounter-hammond-in/700645/191 "2014-10-07T20:05:56Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > It’s under User CP (top left of the bar, same line as the search link) under the Networking side tab. > > [Here is a link.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/profile.php?do=ignorelist) Thanks. In 12 years, I’ve never made use of that feature. Seems of limited value, unfortunately, since I see that the plonked user’s posts still show up in everybody else’s replies. Oh well. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2014, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-filmed-police-encounter-hammond-in/700645/192 "2014-10-07T20:06:37Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Instead he decided to play dumb and teach his kids that _he_ is a bad guy. Do you think that is the lesson that his children learned? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2014, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-filmed-police-encounter-hammond-in/700645/193 "2014-10-07T20:06:56Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > “While openly and flagrantly violating state law and the rules of the road”, is the part that you forgot to type there. I didn’t forget it. I omitted it because it’s not in dispute. She wasn’t wearing a seatbelt and deserved a ticket for it. None of the rest of this should’ve happened. What police officer worth his badge thinks a guy sitting in the passenger seat of a stopped car with children is going to pull out a gun when asked for ID? And there’s another problem here. I know I’m kind of uptight about this, but I write a lot and I look at words closely. I think a lot about what they mean. Not everybody does that. So let’s look at the two adverbs in this sentence: “openly” and “flagrantly.” For starters, they’re kind of redundant and you’ve used two (really three) words where either one would do the job. (Same with “state law and the rules of the road.” State law is the rules of the road in this case.) I’ll assume you made that choice for emphasis, but that only draws attention to the real problem. I’ll come to it in the minute. “Openly” implies that she was somehow calling attention to her behavior. What she was doing was … not wearing a seatbelt. I’m not sure how you do that openly or covertly. You pretty much just do it. You could try to hide it by, say, wearing a t-shirt with a fake seatbelt on it, but I don’t think a lot of people do that. It’s too silly. And I guess you could drive down the road screaming “I’m not wearing a seatbelt!” but she probably wasn’t doing that. Nobody would. So we can strike that word. “Flagrantly,” well, there’s even stronger language. It really means the same thing, but with a stronger connotation of shame. It’s a _conspicuous offense_ to propriety. It suggests she was flaunting something most people would be rightly ashamed of because it might even be immoral. How awful! Again… she was not wearing a seatbelt. I cannot tell how you do that flagrantly or not-flagrantly. It’s a very matter-of-fact thing. It’s a dumb thing to do and it should be against the law, and people who don’t wear their seatbelts should get tickets. So all of that is fair. But what you’re doing here is trying to trump up the nature of her offense so as to justify what happened- to justify, if not the cops’ behavior, at least the affront to their dignity. ‘How dare this woman _flagrantly_ disregard the seatbelt laws of the great state of Indiana! What evil lurks in her blackened heart?!’ The legal term for what you’re doing here is puffery. It’s filler that nobody takes seriously, and that causes people not to take you seriously. The thing speaks for itself, so don’t shove empty words in there. She wasn’t wearing a seatbelt, which is a bad thing to do, and I think in Indiana that gets you a $25 ticket for a first offense. Saying she ‘openly and flagrantly’ wasn’t wearing a seatbealt is redundant and in this case it’s borderline gibberish. To make matters worse, it just calls attention to the fact that the thing you’re describing is so picayune. If you say someone “openly and flagrantly” robbed a store or assaulted someone, that makes sense. The outrage implied by your words matches the deed itself. If you say someone “openly and flagrantly” drove while not wearing a seatbelt, you sound like a dumbass. > [@](#): > > You misspelled I’ll work on my “spelling” when you stop relying on moronic word games like the above. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2014, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-filmed-police-encounter-hammond-in/700645/194 "2014-10-07T20:07:42Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > Sure. But see above. I’m going to go out on a limb and say that 100% of American drivers have committed multiple moving violations. Calling all those people lawbreakers or criminals is meaningless if you’re describing _everyone_, and then making judgment calls based on that classification. This is possibly the case. It is not feasible in our world to effectively police every single moving violation that occurs. This does not make those violations that go unnoticed any less serious. > [@](#): > > No they don’t. Not all the time. And neither do you. It takes one neglected right turn signal, one unnoticed burnt light, one stop beyond the limit-line/edge of the cross-walk to commit a traffic crime. And, once you’ve committed a crime, you’re a criminal. I guess. Correct. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2014, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-filmed-police-encounter-hammond-in/700645/195 "2014-10-07T20:08:37Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I don’t know which is more horrifying, the video or that there are those that aren’t horrified by it. Shodan and smapti would have made wonderful Nazis, that’s for sure. This. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > They should have written her a ticket and left. No one was protected and served when they asked for ID from her passenger, or from pointing guns near children, etc. The police escalated a routine stop for no reason. They had no reason to even talk to the passenger, much less ask for ID, point guns, smash windows, and tase. And this. And here’s another one: [WATCH: Ohio man films himself in tense verbal battle with cop over his ID](http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/10/watch-ohio-man-films-himself-in-tense-verbal-battle-with-cop-over-his-id/). The cop here just keeps on making up lies about why he stopped the vehicle and what the people inside were doing. I have been pulled over numerous times. I was even driving with an expired license when I was stopped once. But since the original stop was invalid (I had a dog in the car the officer said he thought was an unrestrained child in the back seat), he handed me my license back and said he couldn’t do anything about it except tell me not to drive until it was renewed. In all the times I’ve been pulled over, I’ve never once been asked to exit my vehicle. In fact, the one time I did start to get out of my car, the officer yelled at me to get back IN the car as he was approaching. No one, let alone a passenger, should be harassed to get out of a car when there was only a minor infraction that could be resolved by issuing a ticket and moving on. These guys are just being fucking bullies because they can be. Or should I say _could_ be. They’re about to find out they can’t be anymore, with more and more civilians videoing their obnoxious behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2014, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-filmed-police-encounter-hammond-in/700645/196 "2014-10-07T20:08:40Z")
Has anybody here ever built a fly trap? I have. Our kitchen was infested with fruit flies, and I decided to do a little test. In one fly trap I added honey. To the other I added vinegar. The trap with vinegar caught a lot more flies than the honey trap. Like, ten times more flies. This idiom needs to be retired along with the boiled frog. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2014, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-filmed-police-encounter-hammond-in/700645/197 "2014-10-07T20:08:44Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Do you think that is the lesson that his children learned? It’s the lesson they _should_ learn, unless he takes the opportunity to teach them why what happened to him happened and how they can make sure it never happens to them. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2014, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-filmed-police-encounter-hammond-in/700645/198 "2014-10-07T20:10:01Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Thanks. In 12 years, I’ve never made use of that feature. > > Seems of limited value, unfortunately, since I see that the plonked user’s posts still show up in everybody else’s replies. Oh well. What it takes is everyone working together, and self control. > [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > There is no way to detain someone “non-violently”, just like it’s impossible for a “non-violent rape” to occur. I think there is (non-violent detention), depending on how you define “non-violently”. I’m thinking civil disobedience where non-violent protesters are arrested and people who turn themselves in. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2014, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-filmed-police-encounter-hammond-in/700645/199 "2014-10-07T20:10:34Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > It’s the lesson they _should_ learn IOW, no. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2014, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-filmed-police-encounter-hammond-in/700645/200 "2014-10-07T20:11:15Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > And there’s another problem here. I know I’m kind of uptight about this, but I write a lot and I look at words closely. I think a lot about what they mean. Not everybody does that. So let’s look at the two adverbs in this sentence: “openly” and “flagrantly.” For starters, they’re kind of redundant and you’ve used two (really three) words where either one would do the job. (Same with “state law and the rules of the road.” State law is the rules of the road in this case.) I’ll assume you made that choice for emphasis, but that only draws attention to the real problem. I’ll come to it in the minute. “Openly” implies that she was somehow calling attention to her behavior. What she was doing was … not wearing a seatbelt. I’m not sure how you do that openly or covertly. You pretty much just do it. You could try to hide it by, say, wearing a t-shirt with a fake seatbelt on it, but I don’t think a lot of people do that. It’s too silly. And I guess you could drive down the road screaming “I’m not wearing a seatbelt!” but she probably wasn’t doing that. Nobody would. So we can strike that word. “Flagrantly,” well, there’s even stronger language. It really means the same thing, but with a stronger connotation of shame. It’s a _conspicuous offense_ to propriety. It suggests she was flaunting something most people would be rightly ashamed of because it might even be immoral. How awful! Again… she was not wearing a seatbelt. I cannot tell how you do that flagrantly or not-flagrantly. It’s a very matter-of-fact thing. It’s a dumb thing to do and it should be against the law, and people who don’t wear their seatbelts should get tickets. So all of that is fair. But what you’re doing here is trying to trump up the nature of her offense so as to justify what happened- to justify, if not the cops’ behavior, at least the affront to their dignity. ‘How dare this woman _flagrantly_ disregard the seatbelt laws of the great state of Indiana! What evil lurks in her blackened heart?!’ The legal term for what you’re doing here is puffery. It’s filler that nobody takes seriously, and that causes people not to take you seriously. The thing speaks for itself, so don’t shove empty words in there. She wasn’t wearing a seatbelt, which is a bad thing to do, and I think in Indiana that gets you a $25 ticket for a first offense. Saying she ‘openly and flagrantly’ wasn’t wearing a seatbealt is redundant and in this case it’s borderline gibberish. To make matters worse, it just calls attention to the fact that the thing you’re describing is so picayune. If you say someone “openly and flagrantly” robbed a store or assaulted someone, that makes sense. The outrage implied by your words matches the deed itself. If you say someone “openly and flagrantly” drove while not wearing a seatbelt, you sound like a dumbass. She failed to wear a seatbelt. She did so in a public place where she had no expectation of privacy as to the nature of the crime she was committing, she made no effort to conceal the fact of her crime, and she did so without expressing any remorse or guilt at the nature of the act. She openly and flagrantly failed to wear a seatbelt. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-filmed-police-encounter-hammond-in/700645.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-filmed-police-encounter-hammond-in/700645.md?page=11)