# Another fucking scandal?! WTF?! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 6, 2013, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-fucking-scandal-wtf/660289 "2013-06-06T14:21:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-fucking-scandal-wtf/660289/61 "2013-06-07T02:35:16Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > More precisely, there are two categories of people complaining about this: those who have been bitching about the program all along (like the not-exactly-uninformed American Civil Liberties Union, who’ve been against this measure from day zero), and those who have started bitching about it now that they think it’s a stick to beat Obama with. You haven’t shown us anything to suggest the latter group is greater than zero. Again, The Guardian broke this story. They’re neither rightward nor anti-Obama. > [@BorgHunter](#): > > Civil liberties are unimportant. Government secrecy is just fine, if you can find a tenuous link to protecting against terrorism. It’s utterly despicable Provide evidence that the link is tenuous. You’ve got people in-the-know saying exactly the opposite. You, I presume, are not in the know. So prove it. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-fucking-scandal-wtf/660289/62 "2013-06-07T02:42:39Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > You haven’t shown us anything to suggest the latter group is greater than zero. Ha. Just for starters, here’s [Michelle Malkin’s tortuous self-justification](http://michellemalkin.com/2013/06/06/history-lesson-the-crucial-differences-between-bush-and-obamas-nsa-phone-surveillance-programs/) of why she cheered on Bush’s surveillance program but thinks this phase of it is SCARY. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Duke\_of\_Rat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Duke\_of\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke_of_Rat)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-fucking-scandal-wtf/660289/63 "2013-06-07T03:00:30Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Enough of the fucking scandal-mongering. > > This is not new. They’ve been doing this sort of thing since the 80’s at the very latest, and I knew about it then. Evidently, this is something a little different. Not the Verizon shit, but something the Washington Post calls PRISM. [Washington Post article](http://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/us-intelligence-mining-data-from-nine-us-internet-companies-in-broad-secret-program/2013/06/06/3a0c0da8-cebf-11e2-8845-d970ccb04497_story.html) [Time Recap](http://newsfeed.time.com/2013/06/06/prism-by-the-numbers-a-guide-to-the-governments-secret-internet-data-mining-program/) > [@](#): > > The number of tech companies involved in the PRISM program. Here’s a list, from an NSA slideshow, including the date when monitoring began: > > Microsoft (September 2007) > Yahoo (March 2008) > Google (January 2009) > Facebook (June 2009) > PalTalk (December 2009) > YouTube (September 2010) > Skype (February 2011) > AOL (March 2011) > Apple (October 2012) > So far Facebook, Google, Microsoft, Apple, and Yahoo have flatly denied that they provide the government backdoor access to their services, according to a variety of news sources. Twitter, which says it has been particularly vigilant in protecting user data from government agencies, is notably absent from the list. Dropbox is next in line to be added to PRISM, according to the Post. And it looks like the scope is more than just metadata > [@](#): > > The number of different types of data that are collected through PRISM. E-mails, instant messages, videos, photos, stored data (likely items stored on cloud services like Google Drive), voice chats, file transfers, video conferences, log-in times, and social network profile details have all been monitored by the government. Through PRISM NSA officials can even conduct live surveillance of someone doing a Google search, according to the Post. And it seems to be recently important > [@](#): > > 2007 > > The year PRISM was established. The Post describes an “exponential growth” in the program since President Obama took office. The government has snooped on other forms of communication in recent years as well. On Thursday, Senator Dianne Feinstein confirmed that the NSA phone log database has been in place for at least seven years. > > 1,477 > > The number of times PRISM data was cited in 2012 as part of President Obama’s daily briefing, a high-level intelligence presentation given to the president, the vice president and select cabinet members. According to the Post, at least 1 in 7 intelligence reports from the NSA make use of PRISM data. So the “cell phone scandal” isn’t a scandal, let’s see how far this thing goes before being poo-poo’d away. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-fucking-scandal-wtf/660289/64 "2013-06-07T03:13:37Z")
I welcome these scandals because it gives Jon Stewart good material to work with. ---
**Author:** ![BorgHunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@BorgHunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BorgHunter)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-fucking-scandal-wtf/660289/65 "2013-06-07T03:23:21Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > Provide evidence that the link is tenuous. You’ve got people in-the-know saying exactly the opposite. You, I presume, are not in the know. So prove it. I’m afraid you’re misusing the burden of proof here. It goes the other way. Provide evidence that there _is_ a link. The mere say-so of “people in-the-know” (like Senator Feinstein, I suppose) is inadequate because of the obvious conflict of interest, so you’ll have to do better. By the way, the idea that I’m “not in the know”? That’s part of my complaint. I should be in the know. You should be in the know. _Everyone_ should be in the know. That’s essential to democracy. You can’t have a democracy if voters are incapable of making informed decisions. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-fucking-scandal-wtf/660289/66 "2013-06-07T04:17:07Z")
I can’t help but think that information on that scale is useless. Suppose you could, suppose you could have recorded every single phone conversation in America for a whole day, where would you put it? You gonna rent God Almighty’s server? Even if you had Big Blue Godzilla, what search terms would you use? And where will you get five million hamsters? ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-fucking-scandal-wtf/660289/67 "2013-06-07T04:44:10Z")
Proactively, sure. But retrospectively? “Hi **elucidator** , you don’t know us. Just call us Agent Black and Agent White. As I’m sure you’re aware, since she was elected last year, Madame President Bachmann has announced a number of new initiatives aimed at to promoting love of country. You do love your country, don’t you **elucidator**? Of course, of course. But looking back a number of years ago, you made some comments on the Straight Dope Message Board that . . . concerned us. And it was right around that time . . . oh, some time before your divorce, if I recall correctly . . . that you began FB chatting, and then later calling by mobile, a miss Gennifer Quickly. Those conversations never emerged in the custody hearings for your children, did they? It’d be a shame to reopen old wounds at this late date, especially now that you’re getting along so well – calling them almost every day, I see. As I say, **elucidator** , we just want to make sure that everyone understands how important it is to love one’s country, and the good people who are guiding the country, even as much as one loves one’s own children. Wouldn’t you agree?” ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-fucking-scandal-wtf/660289/68 "2013-06-07T04:58:02Z")
The shameless cannot be blackmailed. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-fucking-scandal-wtf/660289/69 "2013-06-07T05:07:15Z")
Good on yer, then, but I have a feeling that just a month or two ago you would have been pointing and laughing at me for being a tinfoil hatter, with the above post. Fact is, it now emerges that there’s nothing at all I’ve written that is in the slightest bit implausible, is there? ('cept maybe for President Bachmann, but who’s to say there won’t be someone even worse by your lights?) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-fucking-scandal-wtf/660289/70 "2013-06-07T05:50:46Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I can’t help but think that information on that scale is useless. Suppose you could, suppose you could have recorded every single phone conversation in America for a whole day, where would you put it? You gonna rent God Almighty’s server? Even if you had Big Blue Godzilla, what search terms would you use? And where will you get five million hamsters? As I understand it, they are not recording conversations, but they are recording who called whom. Not because they think you call me to discuss blowing up the Statue of Liberty, but just because they want a record that you called me for whatever reason. That amount of information is easy to store. Now, they supposedly have a FISA judge’s approval to do this, and so it’s perfectly legal. The question is: Do we want it to be “perfectly legal”. I don’t. Do you? Someone can correct if I’m wrong, but I don’t see that Obama is doing anything illegal here. Maybe some folks (including me) expected more of him; I don’t know. I can’t say I’m completely surprised, but I am a bit disappointed. Still, I’m happy the he is the president and not Romney. I would expect worse form Romney, but that doesn’t make me any less disappointed in Obama. ---
**Author:** ![Werekoala](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7993a0/32.png) [@Werekoala](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Werekoala)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-fucking-scandal-wtf/660289/71 "2013-06-07T11:55:52Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I can’t help but think that information on that scale is useless. Suppose you could, suppose you could have recorded every single phone conversation in America for a whole day, where would you put it? You gonna rent God Almighty’s server? Even if you had Big Blue Godzilla, what search terms would you use? And where will you get five million hamsters? Well that’s fine then. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-fucking-scandal-wtf/660289/72 "2013-06-07T12:32:07Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > If opposition from the left cannot affect the civil-liberties policies of a Democratic administration, why would one think that opposition from the right would have affected a Republican administration? Because the two are not equal. Unfortunately, we DFHs are a much smaller fraction of the body politic than the wingnuts on the right. Since there’s a rough balance between the two parties in our politics, that means the wingnuts have a lot more clout in the GOP than we DFHs do in the Democratic Party. While said wingnuts weren’t as powerful during the Bush Administration as they are now, they had the clout back then to kill things like immigration reform and the Harriet Miers nomination. Nowadays, pretty much nobody in the GOP can cross the wingnuts. Chris Christie is about the only exception, representing a Northeastern state, and he’ll stop being one if he tries to run for President as a Republican. By contrast, Obama pretty much ignores anybody to his left, and has been able to get away with that for four and a half years. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-fucking-scandal-wtf/660289/73 "2013-06-07T12:37:44Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > we DFHs What is a DFH? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-fucking-scandal-wtf/660289/74 "2013-06-07T13:27:27Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > What is a DFH? Dirty Fucking Hippie. I think Duncan (“Atrios”) Black originated the acronym. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-fucking-scandal-wtf/660289/75 "2013-06-07T16:37:10Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > Proactively, sure. But retrospectively? “Hi **elucidator** , you don’t know us. Just call us Agent Black and Agent White. As I’m sure you’re aware, since she was elected last year, Madame President Bachmann has announced a number of new initiatives aimed at to promoting love of country. You do love your country, don’t you **elucidator**? Of course, of course. But looking back a number of years ago, you made some comments on the Straight Dope Message Board that . . . concerned us. And it was right around that time . . . oh, some time before your divorce, if I recall correctly . . . that you began FB chatting, and then later calling by mobile, a miss Gennifer Quickly. Those conversations never emerged in the custody hearings for your children, did they? It’d be a shame to reopen old wounds at this late date, especially now that you’re getting along so well – calling them almost every day, I see. As I say, **elucidator** , we just want to make sure that everyone understands how important it is to love one’s country, and the good people who are guiding the country, even as much as one loves one’s own children. Wouldn’t you agree?” Why would they bother? Seriously, why would they bother? If nothing else, I am guessing _that_ is the major reason why so many voters don’t seem to care about the issue. Until you can explain to them why the FBI would bother to knock on **elucidator’s** door and blackmail him, no one is going to get any traction on this issue. ETA: As a (partial) aside, I’ve always wondered when the first federal agent in charge of looking through Internet data (if such a person exists) is going to make millions blackmailing someone wealthy and powerful, or do industrial espionage/insider trading based on intercepted e-mails. Maybe THAT will get some concern amongst both general population and the rich/powerful… ---
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-fucking-scandal-wtf/660289/76 "2013-06-07T16:51:02Z")
> [@babygoat666](#): > > The PATRIOT Act was signed on October 26, 2001. What a peculiar time to get upset over it. It’s been re-upped a couple of times since, IIRC, the latest being 2011. Back in 2001 I lauded Russ Feingold for his solo opposition to the Act. > **[Russell Feingold - On Opposing The U.S.A. Patriot Act](http://www.archipelago.org/vol6-2/feingold.htm)** I **guaran-damn-tee** that no matter how much Faux News gets their collective panties in a bunch over this, they will not praise Russ’s no vote of 2001. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-fucking-scandal-wtf/660289/77 "2013-06-07T19:15:41Z")
The problem with these scandals is that they are so politicized. People are killed in Bengazhi: it’s reasonable to provide some oversight to see if we could do better next time, but instead it’s a conspiracy to not use the work “terrorist” for some advantage I can’t fathom. We should look at things like the Patriot Act to see if it oversteps; but it was passed with support of both parties, and been used by administrations of both parties, so why turn it into a partisan witch hunt? Conservatives want their Watergate moment, but that was an actual scandal, not some made up bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Werekoala](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7993a0/32.png) [@Werekoala](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Werekoala)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-fucking-scandal-wtf/660289/78 "2013-06-07T19:28:27Z")
> [@fumster](#): > > Conservatives want their Watergate moment, but that was an actual scandal, not some made up bullshit. Pretty sure this NSA thing isn’t going to be made up bullshit before it’s over… ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-fucking-scandal-wtf/660289/79 "2013-06-07T19:33:40Z")
> [@Werekoala](#): > > Pretty sure this NSA thing isn’t going to be made up bullshit before it’s over… And I’m pretty sure Congress didn’t repeatedly approve the Watergate burglaries and didn’t speak up in favor of the break-ins after they happened. That does tamp down the scandal potential pretty well, but we can hope against hope that we’ll have a sensible discussion of intelligence gathering instead of a lot of screaming. If this intelligence has been used to disrupt terrorist plotting, is there some way to accomplish the same end without casting this incredibly broad net? Is the secret court thing not sufficient after all even though it sounded so great the first time? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Werekoala](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7993a0/32.png) [@Werekoala](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Werekoala)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-fucking-scandal-wtf/660289/80 "2013-06-07T19:38:42Z")
Oh trust me, I’m not putting this all on Obama’s plate. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-fucking-scandal-wtf/660289.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-fucking-scandal-wtf/660289.md?page=5)