Another fucking scandal?! WTF?!

[XT]

There doesn’t seem to be much fucking in this scandal. I’m SO disappointed. Whatever happened to the good old fashioned DNA on the blouse type scandals, anyway??

[Cheesesteak]

@Darth_Panda

I’d say I’ve been similarly annoyed by it the whole time, but there have been large gaps of time when I wasn’t thinking about it - so much other shit going on.

Apparently, reminding you that this is still the law of the land counts as investigative reporting.

[RTFirefly]

@Condescending_Robot

Every discussion devolves into “We need to give Obama our unconditional support because Bush was bad and will magically come back for a third term if we don’t, and also everything Obama does is fine because Bush (who, remember is evil to a mystical degree!) did similar things.”

I’d try to use logic on these people but it would work about as well as talking to a Scientologist. Any moral person should be as done with this administration as they were with the last one, but there’s too many True Believers out there who are more interested in defending their team on the Internet than thinking.

You don’t have much to be condescending about, because this is majorly stupid shit.

1. Who are these posters who are saying we need to give Obama our unconditional support for any reason?

2. Who are the libruls who are saying it’s fine because Bush did similar things? I see people saying “why are people acting surprised?” but that’s rather different.

3. “Any moral person should be as done with this administration as they were with the last one” because why? Because there are not a truckload of meaningful differences between Bush and Obama on other issues?

Yeah, I’m disappointed that Obama continues the surveillance abuses of Bush. But I’m glad that Obama didn’t try to privatize Social Security, as Bush tried to, or voucherize Medicare, as Romney and Ryan would have done. These things matter, too.

[Kimstu]

@Condescending_Robot

I’d try to use logic on these people but it would work about as well as talking to a Scientologist.

You’re the one who seems to have a problem comprehending logic. The argument is not “we must defend Obama” but rather “the conservatives lambasting Obama about this, but not acknowledging that it was a Bush policy in the first place, are hypocrites whose newfound devotion to civil liberties is illusory”.

You’re comparatively new around here so you wouldn’t know, but a lot of us complained about the PATRIOT Act surveillance measures back when they were first introduced and remain just as opposed to them now.

[Miller]

@Condescending_Robot

I’d try to use logic on these people…

…but you don’t know how?

[Darth_Panda]

@Cheesesteak

Apparently, reminding you that this is still the law of the land counts as investigative reporting.

Well, at least they’re not wrong. That’s a step up from most reporting.

[Condescending_Robot]

@RTFirefly

2. Who are the libruls who are saying it’s fine because Bush did similar things? I see people saying “why are people acting surprised?” but that’s rather different.

Avoiding discussion of the substance of an issue’s right or wrongness with “it shouldn’t be surprising” is a dodge by people who want to downplay the issue without offering a real argument.

“Why are you so surprised that a conservative opposes gay marriage?”
“I’m not saying it was OK to rape that girl, but if you get drunk at a party, what do you expect to happen?”
“War is messy. That civilians die should not be a surprise.”

Who makes those arguments? People who are legitimately AGAINST homophobia, rape, and war crimes, or people trying to justify the people and forces that perpetuate them? Why is this any different?

I don’t care what conservatives think. Yes, they’re being hypocrites on this issue. Since I’m not a conservative and I have just as much well-earned venom for them as I do for the Obama cultists, the usual strategy of talking about how bad George Bush or Hypothetical Mitt Romney were as Presidents doesn’t zing me and doesn’t make me any less convinced that Obama thinks he is in some sort of race with Bush to win the coveted “worst President in American history” award.

[Marley23]

@Koxinga

Odd that noone stops to wonder where all these revelations are coming from, and all of a sudden, too. I’ve said it before, in trying to throw the CIA and the Clintons under the bus for Benghazi, Obama chose … poorly.

This is many kinds of stupid at once. Please let go of your bullshit gossip theory that Obama blamed the Clintons for Benghazi.

[Bricker]

@Leaper

… Which many of the people screaming about it now did not protest (and indeed, actively supported) when he did it. At least the liberals concerned about civil liberties are consistent. That is the point of at least some of those responding.

Heck, I’m not sure which I’m more disturbed by: hypocritical conservatives for whom the current news is suddenly BAD because the President is different, or the consistent ones who think that the surveillance is STILL a-okay.

And the third group: liberals upset by Bush’s use of the tactic but now largely silent because it’s Obama’s administration. I assume they also bug you?

For the record: I saw no problem with it when Bush did it and see no problem now.

[BobLibDem]

If this is a scandal, it would be the first one. Nothing to Benghazi or the IRS scandals that I can see. Of course Issa will investigate this one, as well as investigate why nobody is paying attention to his other investigations.

[babygoat666]

@Condescending_Robot

Avoiding discussion of the substance of an issue’s right or wrongness with “it shouldn’t be surprising” is a dodge by people who want to downplay the issue without offering a real argument.

Bull shit. I don’t like it any more than you do, but this should not be news to you or anyone else. The PATRIOT Act was signed in front of all of our faces over 10 years ago, and your attempt to feign outrage over it now reeks of opportunism.

[SteveG1]

@Kimstu

This is old news that is only being called a “scandal” now because it’s got Obama’s name attached to it. From your link:

Emphasis added. Don’t get me wrong, I’m completely opposed to this kind of surveillance and have been ever since the post-9/11 “War on Terror” measures got started. But it’s absurd for anti-Obama media to pretend that this is somehow a new thing that’s specifically Obama’s fault.

To the conservative frothers who are screaming about government tyranny, I say: Well, jackasses, this is why we civil-liberties types were trying to tell you ten years ago that you should oppose this kind of intrusive draconian security measure. Because someday, after you’ve calmed down from your “root out and kill all the Mooslim terrists!!1!!!” frenzy, such measures are still going to be operative under an administration you don’t like.

To the Obama admirers who are disappointed that his administration hasn’t voluntarily discontinued this practice, I say: Suckers. I voted for Obama too because both times he was clearly better than the other guy, but I never kidded myself that the liberal principles of his administration extended to actually relinquishing any kind of executive power, however illegitimately derived.

This. In its entirety. That it ever happened (under Bush) at all is a scandal. That it is allowed to continue (under Obama) is a scandal. That it will always continue no matter which ass hole is in the White House is a scandal.

[SteveG1]

@babygoat666

Bull shit. I don’t like it any more than you do, but this should not be news to you or anyone else. The PATRIOT Act was signed in front of all of our faces over 10 years ago, and your attempt to feign outrage over it now reeks of opportunism.

This too. At THAT time it was a matter of “support the son of a bitch or you are a traitor”. From many of the very same people who are screaming NOW.

Added on edit. It’s WRONG no matter which son of a bitch does it and no matter if he has a D or an R after his name.

[Inigo_Montoya]

@Kimstu

I voted for Obama too because both times he was clearly better than the other guy

This. But I kinda like him. In fact the more totalitarian he becomes (which so far amounts to ‘hardly’ as far as I can tell) the more I respect him–but then I loathe democracy and favor a unicorns and rainbows vision of benevolent dictatorship. Foolish I know, but I’d really dig the overall result I think.

Political leanings aside, however, The Republican Party made it disturbingly easy for me to choose Obama both times. The real possibility of President Palin? Pandering, spineless, plutocrat Mittens? Bitch please. I could probably have beaten them with Eminem as my VP if I held the (D) card.

As for the OP, to the Republican outcriers I say HA! and once again, HA!

(yeah I’m an iCarly fan, so what?)

[El_Kabong]

@Condescending_Robot

Since I’m not a conservative and I have just as much well-earned venom for them as I do for the Obama cultists, the usual strategy of talking about how bad George Bush or Hypothetical Mitt Romney were as Presidents doesn’t zing me and doesn’t make me any less convinced that Obama thinks he is in some sort of race with Bush to win the coveted “worst President in American history” award.

Much appreciated if you would name an “Obama cultist” who is currently posting to this thread, so I can have a better idea what you might be talking about.

Meanwhile, I am highly annoyed that blanket NSA monitoring of telephone communications is allowed to continue under this administration (even though the only info they are most likely getting from me is how many telemarketing outfits insist on trying to call me on my mobile). I’ll state it plainly, here and now: I have no intention of voting for Obama in the next election.

Hey, someone’s got to take a stand.

[elucidator]

Well, if the President for Life Amendment passes soon enough, there will be no need.

[RTFirefly]

@Bricker

And the third group: liberals upset by Bush’s use of the tactic but now largely silent because it’s Obama’s administration. I assume they also bug you?

We’ve already banged our heads against this wall, at a time when we thought there was a possibility that it might do some good. It’s fucking idiotic to judge us because we don’t feel like repeating the experience at a time when there’s pretty much a guarantee that it won’t do any good at all.

You’d have an argument if we were defending Obama’s use of this data-vacuuming program. Or if we were silent at a time when our voices might make a difference - e.g. if a nontrivial number of Republicans in each house of Congress were willing to repeal the Patriot Act amendments that legalized these abuses, so that the repeal could pass with Democratic help. But you know as well as I do that the GOP will wave its arms and be outraged in the hearing room, but will be totally uninterested in legislation that would outlaw this shit.

So there’s no reason to get excited - no reason to do more than nod in agreement when someone else says this is an outrage. Of course it is. It was an outrage back in 2007, or whenever it came to light - and despite tons of liberal outrage back then, Congress voted to legalize it, with the help of all too many fucking quisling Democrats. :mad: The landscape has hardly improved since then.

[Smapti]

I, for one, find it utterly scandalous that the activity that has been going on for the last twelve years with no indication whatsoever that it was going to stop, has continued to go on for the last three months.

[babygoat666]

It is very telling that the new wave of outrage isn’t about how to stop this practice but to let everyone know how bad it looks for Obama. Your concern is most genuine.

[Duke_of_Rat]

The really strange part of it all is that the NSA just doesn’t seem very adept at actually using any of the data. Frontline did a piece on “Top Secret America”, talking about all the billions of dollars spent (they updated it after the Boston bombings) to not much of a result.

The NSA is getting all of Verizon’s metadata, all the terrorists just switched to Sprint.

The NSA intercepts huge amounts of internet traffic coming from Asia (according to Frontline), yet once again the Chinese military hackers are infiltrating private, corporate, and government servers with impunity.

I’m reminded of Governor LePetomane, “We have to protect our phoney baloney jobs here, gentlemen!”