# Another grammar question **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 11, 2008, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-grammar-question/440905 "2008-03-11T00:00:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-grammar-question/440905/1 "2008-03-11T00:00:55Z")
I took a quiz on the use of “who,” “which,” “that,” and “whom” on a website. I got one of the questions wrong. The question was: 1. Choose the correct sentence. A) That is a problem who can’t be solved without a calculator. B) That is a problem which can’t be solved without a calculator. C) That is a problem that can’t be solved without a calculator. D) That is a problem whom can’t be solved without a calculator. The answer on the website is A. That makes no sense to me. Is the website wrong? > **[Who, Whom, That, Which Quiz | The Blue Book of Grammar and Punctuation](https://www.grammarbook.com/grammar_quiz/who_vs_which_1.asp)** > > Who, Whom, That, Which Quiz from the Blue Book of Grammar and Punctuation. ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-grammar-question/440905/2 "2008-03-11T00:07:41Z")
I think you read the answer wrong. I just did it, and it said the correct answer is “which.” ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-grammar-question/440905/3 "2008-03-11T00:11:44Z")
Concur. > [@](#): > > 1. Choose the correct sentence. > > Correct Answer: B That is a problem which can’t be solved without a calculator. > > Your Answer: B That is a problem which can’t be solved without a calculator. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-grammar-question/440905/4 "2008-03-11T00:18:56Z")
Nevermind. Thank you for your help. This thread can be closed. ---
**Author:** ![Scarlett67](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scarlett67/32/7387_2.png) [@Scarlett67](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scarlett67)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-grammar-question/440905/5 "2008-03-11T03:07:22Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun] Nevermind. Thank you for your help. This thread can be closed. [/QUOTE] Not so fast . . . I just took the quiz, and apparently whoever wrote the test thinks that you can’t have two "that"s in a sentence, even when one is used in the correct restrictive sense. 😕 (Why yes, I do prefer to retain the distinction between “which” [nonrestrictive, use commas] and “that” [restrictive, no commas]. And I disagree with the test author’s calling such usage flat-out wrong.) ---
**Author:** ![Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-grammar-question/440905/6 "2008-03-11T03:15:17Z")
[QUOTE=Scarlett67] Not so fast . . . I just took the quiz, and apparently whoever wrote the test thinks that you can’t have two "that"s in a sentence, even when one is used in the correct restrictive sense. 😕 (Why yes, I do prefer to retain the distinction between “which” [nonrestrictive, use commas] and “that” [restrictive, no commas]. And I disagree with the test author’s calling such usage flat-out wrong.) [/QUOTE] Which ones do you disagree with? ---
**Author:** ![Mandarax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@Mandarax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mandarax)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-grammar-question/440905/7 "2008-03-11T04:16:36Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun] Which ones do you disagree with? [/QUOTE] I’m not **Scarlett67** , but I disagree with #2 and #3. I believe that “that” is correct in both cases. ---
**Author:** ![Oslo\_Ostragoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a9a28c/32.png) [@Oslo\_Ostragoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oslo_Ostragoth)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-grammar-question/440905/8 "2008-03-11T04:32:41Z")
I missed 3, or did they? Can anyone explain the reasoning? ---
**Author:** ![Cunctator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/43a26b/32.png) [@Cunctator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cunctator)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-grammar-question/440905/9 "2008-03-11T04:49:28Z")
[QUOTE=Mandarax] I’m not **Scarlett67** , but I disagree with #2 and #3. I believe that “that” is correct in both cases. [/QUOTE] Yes, I’d agree with that too. ---
**Author:** ![Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Speaker_for_the_Dead)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-grammar-question/440905/10 "2008-03-11T05:07:12Z")
[QUOTE=Cunctator] Yes, I’d agree with that too. [/QUOTE] Me, too. I also subscribe to the rule that “that” is restrictive and “which” is descriptive. “Which” has commas, “that” doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-grammar-question/440905/11 "2008-03-11T05:13:56Z")
[QUOTE=Oslo Ostragoth] I missed 3, or did they? Can anyone explain the reasoning? [/QUOTE] IIRC this was a “that vs which” question. Personally, I can’t see any difference worth mentioning in the example they used. But still: [http://www.drgrammar.org/faqs/#40](http://www.drgrammar.org/faqs/#40) [QUOTE=The site in that link] Common Errors in English argues that "there is little evidence that this distinction is or has ever been regularly made in past centuries by careful writers of English. However, a small but impassioned group of authorities has urged the distinction; so here is the information you will need to pacify them. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-grammar-question/440905/12 "2008-03-11T05:17:30Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun] Nevermind. Thank you for your help. This thread can be closed. [/QUOTE] Have you ever thought about getting a grammar book? They’re not expensive. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-grammar-question/440905/13 "2008-03-11T05:21:18Z")
[QUOTE=Scarlett67] Not so fast . . . I just took the quiz, and apparently whoever wrote the test thinks that you can’t have two "that"s in a sentence, even when one is used in the correct restrictive sense. 😕 (Why yes, I do prefer to retain the distinction between “which” [nonrestrictive, use commas] and “that” [restrictive, no commas]. And I disagree with the test author’s calling such usage flat-out wrong.) [/QUOTE] There is a distinction, but it has nothing to do with “how many times you can use _ **that** _ in a sentence.” I’m going to check this “quiz” out. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-grammar-question/440905/14 "2008-03-11T07:08:55Z")
In the four sentences, there are two distinct words spelled as _ **that** _. The first one is a demonstrative pronoun (a deictic). It’s like when you point at something that you consider to be either near or far. (“Not _that_ one, _this_ one.”) The second _that_ is a relative pronoun. Restrictive vs. non-restrictive refers to only the second _that_ (For restrictive we don’t use the commas to indicate only one referent as opposed to another _possible_ referent. Emphasis on possible.) Don’t use _that_ for non-restrictive relative clauses. In both spoken and written English—except in only the most formal situations (academic writing, or giving a speech in front of the president)—we use _that_ or _who_ in restrictive clauses. In speech usually people communicate the “comma/s” in non-restrictive clauses by pausing. EXAMPLES: I have two sisters. My older sister, [del]that[/del] who lives in Malibu, has a big snake. I have two sisters. The older sister, [del]that[/del] who lives in Malibu, has a big snake. (The other sister is younger, but it could be that she also lives in Malibu–non-restrictive.) I have two sisters. The sister that / who lives in Malibu has a big snake. (The other sister definitely doesn’t live in Malibu or have a big snake–restrictive.) _Whom_ is for object case and people only. EX: “That is a man whom I can’t understand.” _Which_ is another relative pronoun. You can use it like _that_, but also in a non-restrictive clause, and some people consider it more formal. So the quiz is wrong so say that letter C is incorrect, unless it’s going by only the most formal standard–a standard that is rarely applied today. I suppose if it’s a test for proofreaders at an academic press, it might apply. If you heard the following conversation, or read it in a play, would it seem ungrammatical to you? Not to me. EXAMPLE: A: After you left the club, I got the girl’s phone number. B: Really? But I thought she was married. A: No, that’s the girl that lives in my building. I’m talking about the girl that works at the Whiskey. B: Oh. I see. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-grammar-question/440905/15 "2008-03-11T07:18:52Z")
Nothing wrong with using “which” for restrictive relative clauses, nothing wrong with using “which” for restrictive relative clauses, trust your ears as a native speaker of English, nothing wrong with using “which” for restrictive relative clauses, William Strunk himself did it, and though E.B. White tried to hide that, he used them as well, as is only to be expected, given that both were native speakers of English, nothing wrong with using “which” for restrictive relative clauses… (This wasn’t a response to **guizot** , who didn’t really say anything against this, but to the very concept that a native speaker of English would need to take a test to demonstrate their knowledge of the “hidden rules” governing “that”/“which” distinctions in the first place) ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-grammar-question/440905/16 "2008-03-11T07:22:55Z")
[QUOTE=guizot] (For restrictive we don’t use the commas to indicate only one referent as opposed to another _possible_ referent. Emphasis on possible.) [/QUOTE] Sorry. That should be, “For restrictive we DON’T use commas to indicate one PARTICULAR referent as opposed to another.” EX: The people who wore bathings suits went to beach. (I.e., the people who _didn’t_ have bathing suits didn’t go the beach. They went somewhere else.) ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-grammar-question/440905/17 "2008-03-11T08:15:09Z")
[QUOTE=Oslo Ostragoth] I missed 3, or did they? Can anyone explain the reasoning? [/QUOTE] Well, #2 and #3 are basically testing the same thing. As pointed out by **scarlett67** , the people who made this test believe that if you have a predicate nominative construction, and if the subject is a pronoun, such as _this_, and not a proper noun, then you must use _which_ in the relative clause: [PRONOUN] be [PROPER NOUN] [RELATIVE CLAUSE] This is a car which has many features. On the other hand, they also seem to believe that if you “front load” a predicate nominative sentence with a relative clause, putting it in the “subject” position with a proper noun, then you must use _that_. In other words, they think that a subject “can’t” be a relative clause (because _that_ “doesn’t belong in relative clause” in the sentence of a proper grammarian) so you have only two correct ways to express the idea. The above example, or something like this: [PROPER NOUN] [(fake)RELATIVE CLAUSE] be [PREDICATE] A car that has many features is good. But just about everybody today is fine with switching the two words in most contexts and it will be accepted as grammatical and correct. ---
**Author:** ![Scarlett67](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scarlett67/32/7387_2.png) [@Scarlett67](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scarlett67)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-grammar-question/440905/18 "2008-03-11T12:47:53Z")
[QUOTE=Mandarax] I’m not **Scarlett67** , but I disagree with #2 and #3. I believe that “that” is correct in both cases. [/QUOTE] Yes, exactly. I won’t rehash **guizot** ’s excellent explanation (I was too [del]lazy[/del] tired last night to get into it myself). I agree that there’s no rule about the number of "that"s in a sentence, but that (heh) seemed to be the only difference in the problem questions, as others did make the correct restrictive/nonrestrictive distinction. (Just yesterday I was proofreading second pass pages of a novel in which the first proofer had queried a sentence that had FOUR "that"s in it. The editor revised to eliminate only one of them.) Oh yeah, and I do think a grammar book would be a worthwhile investment for the OP. I use _Hodges’ Harbrace College Handbook_ most of the time, but Karen Elizabeth Gordon’s _The Transitive Vampire_ is much more entertaining. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-grammar-question/440905/19 "2008-03-11T13:26:11Z")
Thread closed at OP’s request. **Gfactor** General Questions Moderator