# Another Gun Control Thread---Mental Illness **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 8, 2013, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-gun-control-thread-mental-illness/646539 "2013-01-08T21:34:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2013, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-gun-control-thread-mental-illness/646539/1 "2013-01-08T21:34:05Z")
I know that gun control threads are everywhere, but I wanted to concentrate solely for the purposes of this thread (and we’ll see how that goes) as to the what, why, and how increasing access to mental illness databases would work in practice and what your proposals would be. Current federal law prohibits possession or purchase of a firearm by a person who has previously been involuntarily committed or are adjudicated “mentally defective.” These are public records that can be checked by the FBI during gun purchases. I’ll admit that this is a very lenient standard and misses a great number of mentally ill people. How do we step that up? Is every doctor visit now going to be reported to the feds in case something transpires during the visit that might put into question the patient’s mental health? If I am put on Prozac to help deal with the death of a loved one, will that now make me unable to buy a gun? If not, what type of mental illness would disqualify me, and who makes that determination? I know it’s customary to offer one’s own opinion when starting a GD thread, but I can’t think of a good bright line rule. It seems that if you give the feds discretion, under Democratic presidents, my one time Prozac prescription will disqualify me, and when a Republican comes into office, so long as I’m not presently drooling on my shirt pocket, I can buy a gun. Does anyone have concrete suggestions? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2013, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-gun-control-thread-mental-illness/646539/2 "2013-01-08T21:49:46Z")
[Here’s an overview of state laws covering people who can’t own guns for reasons related to mental illness.](http://www.ncsl.org/issues-research/justice/possession-of-a-firearm-by-the-mentally-ill.aspx) I don’t think the problem is with these laws as written. I think the big issue is awareness of mental illness, helping people understand when they (or those around them) are severely ill and need treatment. > [@jtgain](#): > > Is every doctor visit now going to be reported to the feds in case something transpires during the visit that might put into question the patient’s mental health? If I am put on Prozac to help deal with the death of a loved one, will that now make me unable to buy a gun? No - which is good, because that would be totally inappropriate, intrusive, and unnecessary. Most schizophrenics are no threat to anybody, nevermind most people with depression or anxiety. The issue is with people who are actually dangerous to others or themselves, and I think that’s the basic standard for commitment to a mental hospital or a similar facility. ---
**Author:** ![sweeteviljesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/898d66/32.png) [@sweeteviljesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweeteviljesus)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2013, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-gun-control-thread-mental-illness/646539/3 "2013-01-08T21:51:04Z")
Is there a strong correlation between any psychiatric issue that does not require involuntary commitment and violent behavior? Conditions that cause the sufferer to become psychotic? What about diagnoses where the sufferer is lucid, but sociopathic? Do these sorts of people even seek treatment? Thanks, Rob ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2013, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-gun-control-thread-mental-illness/646539/4 "2013-01-08T21:55:14Z")
I think its important to give help to states so that they have adequate facilities to deal with mental illnesses. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2013, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-gun-control-thread-mental-illness/646539/5 "2013-01-08T21:57:29Z")
> [@sweeteviljesus](#): > > Is there a strong correlation between any psychiatric issue that does not require involuntary commitment and violent behavior? Conditions that cause the sufferer to become psychotic? What about diagnoses where the sufferer is lucid, but sociopathic? Do these sorts of people even seek treatment? > > Thanks, > Rob Most of the violent people in history have been suffering from psychiatric issues that don’t require involuntary commitment… ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2013, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-gun-control-thread-mental-illness/646539/6 "2013-01-08T21:58:57Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > [Here’s an overview of state laws covering people who can’t own guns for reasons related to mental illness.](http://www.ncsl.org/issues-research/justice/possession-of-a-firearm-by-the-mentally-ill.aspx) I don’t think the problem is with these laws as written. I think the big issue is awareness of mental illness, helping people understand when they (or those around them) are severely ill and need treatment. All of those state laws are similar to the federal one. A handful of family and friends have been in situations where they were in a bad way mentally. The authorities always, without fail, told them that they had two choices: 1) They could agree to come in for observation voluntarily and it would be no different than going to a hospital for treatment, or 2) They would be handcuffed, straight-jacketed and forced into a padded cell. Everyone chose option #1. And those choosing option #1 would be missed by any background check and most state laws, even though they were at a point where #2 was a legal option which would disqualify them. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2013, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-gun-control-thread-mental-illness/646539/7 "2013-01-08T22:07:55Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > All of those state laws are similar to the federal one. A handful of family and friends have been in situations where they were in a bad way mentally. The authorities always, without fail, told them that they had two choices: 1) They could agree to come in for observation voluntarily and it would be no different than going to a hospital for treatment, or 2) They would be handcuffed, straight-jacketed and forced into a padded cell. > > Everyone chose option #1. And those choosing option #1 would be missed by any background check and most state laws, even though they were at a point where #2 was a legal option which would disqualify them. Wouldn’t they remain confined (and thus show up on a background check) if they were evaluated and deemed to be a danger to themselves? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2013, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-gun-control-thread-mental-illness/646539/8 "2013-01-08T22:13:36Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Wouldn’t they remain confined (and thus show up on a background check) if they were evaluated and deemed to be a danger to themselves? Not if they stay voluntarily. And from my (limited) experience, states just aren’t in the habit of keeping people long term unless they are absolutely and totally insane. “Let’s put you on some meds, come back in a couple of weeks, and we’ll see how you are doing.” None of this would have ever applied to someone like Lanza. He seemed to be off his nut a bit, but was otherwise functioning. I don’t think he had ever been arrested for anything. I would guess that if his Mom had him locked up (and offered the same #1 or #2 deal), he would have been out with meds in a few days, but I am willing to be corrected on that point. Isn’t the modern trend for treatment of mental illness to go away from institutionalizing and into community treatment? ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2013, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-gun-control-thread-mental-illness/646539/9 "2013-01-08T22:25:50Z")
What about the families of the mentally ill? should they be banned from owning guns also? It doesn’t matter if you prevent someone from buying a gun if they can easily get it from someone they know. The mentally ill discussion with regards to the recent massacres really has nothing to do with gun control, the problem is not that they can buy guns but that we are truly horrible at dealing with the mentally ill. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2013, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-gun-control-thread-mental-illness/646539/10 "2013-01-08T22:26:16Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Isn’t the modern trend for treatment of mental illness to go away from institutionalizing and into community treatment? That’s my understanding, yes, and to go backward into your post: > [@](#): > > Not if they stay voluntarily. And from my (limited) experience, states just aren’t in the habit of keeping people long term unless they are absolutely and totally insane. “Let’s put you on some meds, come back in a couple of weeks, and we’ll see how you are doing.” This last part is where the trouble begins, I think. There are complicated issues of individual freedom here and I don’t support an enormous increase in forcible institutionalization, but the problem is that once you release someone from treatment, there seems to be little follow-up or follow-through to make sure that their treatment is working and that they are continuing to take their medication, for example. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2013, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-gun-control-thread-mental-illness/646539/11 "2013-01-08T22:51:51Z")
I hate the focus on mental illness that has stemmed from the recent murderous rampages in the news. Just because people who go on killing sprees are mentally ill doesn’t mean that mentally ill people go on killing sprees. I highly doubt the ratio of murderers is any higher in the “mentally ill” category than the “humans as a whole” category. So you’re further stigmatizing the mentally ill, and causing them to avoid treatment, for zero societal benefit. Face it, people snap sometimes. They’ve been doing it since before there were people and they’ll keep doing it after we’ve evolved into something else. Legislation simply will not fix it. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2013, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-gun-control-thread-mental-illness/646539/12 "2013-01-08T23:04:09Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > I hate the focus on mental illness that has stemmed from the recent murderous rampages in the news. > > Just because people who go on killing sprees are mentally ill doesn’t mean that mentally ill people go on killing sprees. I highly doubt the ratio of murderers is any higher in the “mentally ill” category than the “humans as a whole” category. > > So you’re further stigmatizing the mentally ill, and causing them to avoid treatment, for zero societal benefit. Face it, people snap sometimes. They’ve been doing it since before there were people and they’ll keep doing it after we’ve evolved into something else. Legislation simply will not fix it. Fair enough, but it’s part of Biden’s commission and his grand plan for new gun control regulation. “Better access to mental health databases” has been floated around and I wonder what posters here would propose to be a part of that. As a side note: Isn’t anyone who commits murder mentally ill? At least for that moment? We live in a society of laws where disagreements are handled through the court system. If you go outside that and kill someone, isn’t that per se evidence that you aren’t thinking straight, what with risking life imprisonment or the death penalty for a hatred of someone? Just get away from them and have no more dealings. In my mind, committing murder when you know the consequences suggests mental illness. ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2013, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-gun-control-thread-mental-illness/646539/13 "2013-01-08T23:04:15Z")
My wife has been managing non-profit mental health programs for 15 years now. I mentioned the concerns being expressed here about registration and loss of gun rights causing people to avoid treatment. She laughed and went on to say that large numbers of people avoid treatment today because it is so hard to get - funding is vanishing and staffing is hard. Apparently few people are willing to get a masters degree and intern for a year for a starting salary in the range of $25K. There are private therapists out there if you are lucky enough to have money or insurance that will pay, but the vast majority of people who need help have to rely on Medicaid if they can qualify. In her opinion, if we were to offer free guns vs free mental health care to those who need it - almost everyone would take treatment. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2013, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-gun-control-thread-mental-illness/646539/14 "2013-01-08T23:09:59Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > All of those state laws are similar to the federal one. A handful of family and friends have been in situations where they were in a bad way mentally. The authorities always, without fail, told them that they had two choices: 1) They could agree to come in for observation voluntarily and it would be no different than going to a hospital for treatment, or 2) They would be handcuffed, straight-jacketed and forced into a padded cell. > > Everyone chose option #1. And those choosing option #1 would be missed by any background check and most state laws, even though they were at a point where #2 was a legal option which would disqualify them. Last I checked many states still do not submit their mental health records to NICS (something like 19 or 20 don’t submit anything). The reason it’s missed could be because it’s not there. Despite that, there have been over 1 million rejections as a result of NICS checks so the system does do something to prevent prohibited persons. As for the two options, if the person is voluntarily choosing option 1, that is not disqualifying. Are you contending that it should be? If while in voluntary treatment the person is deemed a danger to himself or society, that would be disqualifying regardless of the method they entered any treatment facility. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2013, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-gun-control-thread-mental-illness/646539/15 "2013-01-08T23:10:34Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Just because people who go on killing sprees are mentally ill doesn’t mean that mentally ill people go on killing sprees. That does need to be emphasized, but we can discuss this issue while keeping that in mind. > [@](#): > > I highly doubt the ratio of murderers is any higher in the “mentally ill” category than the “humans as a whole” category. That’s more or less unknowable. But in the context of spree murderers, I doubt you’re right. > [@](#): > > So you’re further stigmatizing the mentally ill, and causing them to avoid treatment, for zero societal benefit. Face it, people snap sometimes. They’ve been doing it since before there were people and they’ll keep doing it after we’ve evolved into something else. Legislation simply will not fix it. There are about six assertions in this paragraph that are supported by nothing or are crying out for a cite. The most absurd ideas are the first two. ---
**Author:** ![Paranoid\_Randroid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/paranoid_randroid/32/18_2.png) [@Paranoid\_Randroid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paranoid_Randroid)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2013, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-gun-control-thread-mental-illness/646539/16 "2013-01-08T23:23:22Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > The authorities always, without fail, told them that they had two choices: 1) They could agree to come in for observation voluntarily and it would be no different than going to a hospital for treatment, or 2) They would be handcuffed, straight-jacketed and forced into a padded cell. FWIW, any authority who stated option (2) was lying. Straitjackets haven’t been in use for decades, and these days it’d be highly irregular — bordering on bizarre — to put anyone in a padded cell who wasn’t _actively_ attempting to harm herself or others (as opposed to making threats). She’d likely be handcuffed, but only while being brought in. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2013, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-gun-control-thread-mental-illness/646539/17 "2013-01-08T23:34:44Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > That’s more or less unknowable. But in the context of spree murderers, I doubt you’re right. You’re right, my own personal hunch is that you have to be crazy to kill large quantities of random people outside of a war/terrorism situation. But you could stop 100% of spree killings and not make a dent in the actual number or frequency of people killed. > [@](#): > > There are about six assertions in this paragraph that are supported by nothing or are crying out for a cite. The most absurd ideas are the first two. You really need a cite that says punishing people for seeking mental health treatment will cause some people to avoid seeking treatment? Look up the definition of “incentive”. In what possible scenario would that NOT happen? But, I must agree, I can’t provide a citation for that. I feel like the rest of that paragraph is reasonable extrapolation from what we already know, but I agree it could be better supported. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2013, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-gun-control-thread-mental-illness/646539/18 "2013-01-08T23:43:21Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Last I checked many states still do not submit their mental health records to NICS (something like 19 or 20 don’t submit anything). The reason it’s missed could be because it’s not there. Despite that, there have been over 1 million rejections as a result of NICS checks so the system does do something to prevent prohibited persons. Now, finally there is a gun control proposal I can support: States must share their mental health data with NICS. But aren’t commitments public records anyways? Why can’t the feds find those out? > [@Paranoid\_Randroid](#): > > FWIW, any authority who stated option (2) was lying. Straitjackets haven’t been in use for decades, and these days it’d be highly irregular — bordering on bizarre — to put anyone in a padded cell who wasn’t _actively_ attempting to harm herself or others (as opposed to making threats). She’d likely be handcuffed, but only while being brought in. I have personally seen a straight jacket applied about 12 years ago. It was at a nursing home and a guy kept punching everything in sight, including himself, and jamming objects in his ears. The police were called and he was lead out in a freaking strait jacket. It was very, very sad to see. The poor old man didn’t know what in the hell was going on. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2013, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-gun-control-thread-mental-illness/646539/19 "2013-01-08T23:48:32Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Now, finally there is a gun control proposal I can support: States must share their mental health data with NICS. But aren’t commitments public records anyways? Why can’t the feds find those out? No, commitments are not public records. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2013, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-gun-control-thread-mental-illness/646539/20 "2013-01-09T00:05:29Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > You’re right, my own personal hunch is that you have to be crazy to kill large quantities of random people outside of a war/terrorism situation. But you could stop 100% of spree killings and not make a dent in the actual number or frequency of people killed. That’s true. But nobody said otherwise, and it doesn’t mean we can’t look at ways to improve the mental health system and perhaps make a dent in these types of killings. > [@](#): > > You really need a cite that says punishing people for seeking mental health treatment will cause some people to avoid seeking treatment? Who do you believe is being punished? > [@](#): > > I feel like the rest of that paragraph is reasonable extrapolation from what we already know, but I agree it could be better supported. … do you plan to support it? I’m skeptical that “people just snap sometimes” without serious illnesses or major stresses, although I don’t think that can always be predicted or prevented, nor do I believe that the law just can’t address this. > [@jtgain](#): > > As a side note: Isn’t anyone who commits murder mentally ill? At least for that moment? No, I don’t think so. If they’ve carefully plotted a murder for financial or personal gain, for example, then they’re twisted but I wouldn’t call them mentally ill. Certainly I wouldn’t say they are mentally ill in the sense in which it’s usually discussed, which suggests a diminished capacity and diminished responsibility for their actions. That’s the essential issue here, I think: if you’re sick enough that you weren’t responsible for your actions and something bad happened, you probably can’t be trusted with a gun (at least unless you’ve gotten help). > [@Bone](#): > > Last I checked many states still do not submit their mental health records to NICS (something like 19 or 20 don’t submit anything). The reason it’s missed could be because it’s not there. Despite that, there have been over 1 million rejections as a result of NICS checks so the system does do something to prevent prohibited persons. > [@jtgain](#): > > Now, finally there is a gun control proposal I can support: States must share their mental health data with NICS. I forgot that this was still an issue. I thought newer laws had fixed it, but [it looks to me like compliance with NICS is still voluntary.](http://www.allgov.com/news/controversies/in-wake-of-mass-killings-states-still-dont-comply-with-gun-database-of-mentally-ill?news=844942) That’s just stupid. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-gun-control-thread-mental-illness/646539.md?page=2)