# another gun thread
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-gun-thread/52435
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [January 30, 2001, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-gun-thread/52435 "2001-01-30T18:50:13Z")
**Posts on this page:** 9
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@zwaldd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zwaldd)
#### Post date: [January 30, 2001, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-gun-thread/52435/1 "2001-01-30T18:50:13Z")
i pose this question to gun control **opponents** (if you’re a gun control advocate, post in the latest gun control thread):
are you comfortable with the amount of gun violence in america?
if the answer is yes, then this will be a very short thread.
if no, then is there anything we can do to help? if you think stricter enforcement of current laws would help, can you say which laws and how stricter enforcement would reduce gun violence (or increase it if you don’t think there’s enough).
to keep this from becoming the same old debate, i promise not to suggest any new legislation and i ask that, to keep this thread on track, you not respond to anyone who suggests registration, bans, etc.
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### Author:  [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)
#### Post date: [January 30, 2001, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-gun-thread/52435/2 "2001-01-30T20:57:02Z")
From [this page](http://www.sierratimes.com/archive/dan/2001/jan/edcd013001.htm):
> [@](#):
>
> I next compared the violent crime rates of all 50 states per 100,000 of population in two categories. Those two categories were, 1. states with nondiscretionary rules i.e. known as “shall issue” states and 2. states forbidding concealed handguns altogether. [Violent crime being defined as murder, rape, aggravated assault and robbery.] Here are the facts in this comparison:
>
> 1. States allowing concealed carry: 378.8 violent crimes per 100,000
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> 2. States forbidding concealed carry: 715.9 violent crimes per 100,000
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> States forbidding concealed carry had an 89% higher violent crime rate than states permitting concealed carry!
Clearly, the problem is that there aren’t enough people carrying concealed guns. I suggest that those states that do not allow concealed carry permit it immediately so that we can drive the violent crime levels way down.
Seriously, though, look into Project Exile. Makes sense to me.
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### Author:  [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)
#### Post date: [January 30, 2001, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-gun-thread/52435/3 "2001-01-30T21:36:14Z")
All right. zwaldd, since you specifically asked for this in another threads, here’s an “unbiased” source that says the NRA’s _Project Exile_ works. Well, actually this source isn’t unbiased, I find it very biased, _in favor **of** more stringent gun control measures_. This source is none less than Bill Clinton himself. From a press release titled, “_Fact Sheet on Eight Years of Peace Progress and Prosperity_” and dated 01/09/2001.
> [@](#):
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> Clinton-Gore Administration U.S. Attorneys in Richmond (Project Exile) and Boston (Operation Ceasefire were instrumental in innovative efforts to crack down on armed drug traffickers, violent criminals, gang members and violent youth which has helped to reduce crime in these cities.
And from the same press release:
> [@](#):
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> Five short years ago, Richmond was known nationwide for our high crime and murder rates. Today, we’ve received national attention not for the problem, but for the solution. We’ve attacked crime from all fronts, and one of the most successful avenues has been through strong gun enforcement. President Clinton shares my philosophy that America needs to send a strong message to gun criminals that breaking gun laws will not be tolerated. That’s why we worked with the Clinton Administration to create the nation’s first “Project Exile” program, a partnership at the federal and local levels that has guaranteed that anyone caught with an illegal gun serves five years in federal prison. Project Exile is now being replicated across America by other communities, and gun prosecutions are up. Project Exile’s success in getting tough on gun criminals is due in no small measure to our partnership and President Clinton’s leadership in the fight to reduce crime and gun violence"
>
> – Colonel Jerry Oliver, Chief of Police, Richmond, Virginia. Colonel Oliver is nationally recognized for his success in helping to dramatically reduce crime in Richmond through innovative new partnerships and programs, such as “Project Exile.” Created through a partnership with the Clinton Administration, U.S. Attorney Helen Fahey, Colonel Oliver and community leaders, “Project Exile” has helped take gun criminals off of the streets of Richmond by ensuring that felons caught illegally carrying firearms serve a minimum five year sentence in federal prison.
If you like I can write a summary of the NRA’s _Project Exile_. It’s very simple and imposes no burden on law-abiding citizens. (Except for possibly some additional jail cells, like I said in the other thread.)
[Edited by UncleBeer on 01-30-2001 at 03:46 PM]
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### Author:  [@zwaldd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zwaldd)
#### Post date: [January 30, 2001, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-gun-thread/52435/4 "2001-01-30T21:50:55Z")
max torque - i don’t know if you came here via the gun control thread, but i was hoping for links to less obviously biased sources than ‘colonel dan’s internet publication for real americans’. in any event, here in texas we allow concealed carry. however, there are certain establishments that forbid concealed guns. since the only people who abide by that are ‘law abiding citizens’, it makes them an easy target for gun crime. i propose (for starters) that establishments which overrule a state’s concealed carry allowance should be required to provide for their own private police protection and emergency medical assistance for violent crime related emergencies. since the potential for folks in any given situation to be armed decreases the potential for violent criminal activity, establishments that, on their own accord, forbid guns should not be entitled to taxpayer funded protection.
my other proposal is that, considering the importance of an armed population towards crime reduction, the government should do more to help arm its citizens. for instance, in inner city housing projects where there is plenty of gun violence, there are a lot of people that can’t afford to go out and legally buy a decent gun. why should the second amendment only apply to those of means? are the poor not entitled to the right to bear arms? the government should subsidize the gun industry to bring down the price of guns and get them into the hands of those that need them most.
beer, i was just about to post this unbiased source that states that virginia’s project exile cut the homicide rate by 36% in the first year: [http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/nyw/project\_exile/html/proj\_exile\_exec\_summ.htm](http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/nyw/project_exile/html/proj_exile_exec_summ.htm)
no need to post the nra summary, the doj site describes it very clearly.
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### Author:  [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)
#### Post date: [January 30, 2001, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-gun-thread/52435/5 "2001-01-30T21:54:50Z")
Here’s another. [http://www.stats.org/statswork/houston-guns.htm](http://www.stats.org/statswork/houston-guns.htm) I’ll leave it you to read the entire article and evaluate it for bias. However, here’s a blurb from the [http://www.stats.org](http://www.stats.org) “about” page. “The Statistical Assessment Service (STATS) is a non-partisan, non-profit research organization in Washington, D.C. STATS is devoted to the accurate use of scientific and social research in public policy debate.” I just discovered this organization today. I’m impressed with their impartiality in what I’ve read so far.
Anyway, on to an excerpt from the article linked above.
> [@](#):
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> Meanwhile, the gun-related anti-crime programs which have had the most effect are those, like Project Exile in Richmond, Va., which get guns out of the hands of those most likely to abuse them. Untargeted gun amnesties and buy-backs, on the other hand, have little effect, being used predominantly by those uninterested in breaking the law.
> Getting guns out of the hands of dangerous people will surely help in other areas. If a burglar is unlikely to be armed, for instance, there is less need to have a loaded gun ready at home, and the threat from gun accidents is therefore diminished. In economic terms, people will be less likely to succumb to the “moral hazard” of employing a dangerous weapon for self-protection.
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### Author:  [@zwaldd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zwaldd)
#### Post date: [January 30, 2001, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-gun-thread/52435/6 "2001-01-30T22:35:53Z")
> [@](#):
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> Meanwhile, the gun-related anti-crime programs which have had the most effect are those, like Project Exile in Richmond, Va., which get guns out of the hands of those most likely to abuse them.
now i’m confused. when i first read the project exile info, i thought it said that gun related crimes would be federally prosecuted, thus resulting in harsher sentences and deterring the crimes. from this quote and a re-reading of the specifics, it appears to target crimes committed with illegal guns, with the intent of decreasing the proliferation of illegal guns. here’s a quote from the doj site regarding the message project exile directs towards criminals:
“If you commit a crime with an illegal gun you forfeit your right to be a part of our community. You will be prosecuted in federal court and, upon conviction, will be sentenced to a federal jail far away from the Rochester community.”
so what constitutes an ‘illegal gun’? or is the implication that any gun used in a crime automatically becomes an ‘illegal gun’? how does project exile keep guns out of the hands of “those most likely to abuse them”?
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### Author:  [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)
#### Post date: [January 30, 2001, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-gun-thread/52435/7 "2001-01-30T22:58:08Z")
[QUOTE]
\*Originally posted by zwaldd \*
\*\*
> [@](#):
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> so what constitutes an ‘illegal gun’? or is the implication that any gun used in a crime automatically becomes an ‘illegal gun’? how does project exile keep guns out of the hands of “those most likely to abuse them”? \*\*
I’m sure there is more recent or better definitions around but based on my recollections of a book called “How to own a gun and stay out of jail (1996)” and my readings on operation exile;
If you cannot legally posess a gun for whatever reason or the weapon in question was not legally transferred to you it would constitute breaking the federal laws covered by exile.
So you break into a house and steal some guns, 2 weeks later you rob a store and are caught with one of these guns in your posession, you are in posession of an “illegal weapon” if convicted on this charge you will do a minimum of 5 years in a federal prison (no parole,early release, etc).
FYI The reson for the exile name is that usually major federal prisons are few and far between. Instead of doing time in local county jails (filled with the criminals friends and family no doubt) he has to go somewhere far away where it it less likely that he will have friends to back him up inside and or visitors
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### Author:  [@zwaldd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zwaldd)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2001, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-gun-thread/52435/8 "2001-01-31T00:02:12Z")
> [@](#):
>
> If you cannot legally posess a gun for whatever reason or the weapon in question was not legally transferred to you it would constitute breaking the federal laws covered by exile.
so if you’re not a convicted felon and you acquired your gun legally and you use it in a crime, project exile would not apply? can you circumvent federal prosecution by buying your gun from someone else who stole it and then claim you didn’t know it was stolen? i don’t know of any laws in texas that regulate gun transfers between private owners. how would project exile apply there?
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### Author:  [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2001, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-gun-thread/52435/9 "2001-01-31T01:49:27Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by zwaldd \*
> so if you’re not a convicted felon and you acquired your gun legally and you use it in a crime, project exile would not apply? can you circumvent federal prosecution by buying your gun from someone else who stole it and then claim you didn’t know it was stolen? i don’t know of any laws in texas that regulate gun transfers between private owners. how would project exile apply there? \*\*
If you were a convicted felon you have had your right to own a gun suspended, so you could not legally purchase one from anyone. In California all gun transactions must go through someone with a federal firearms dealer licence or sometimes local law enforcement agencies also facilitate transfers. The only exception I know of is **inheritances** from family members.
(It would kinda suck to lose great grandpas octagon barrel winchester 30-30 made in 1896 because you were a criminal huh)
If you had purchased the gun legally and committed a crime yes exile **would not apply** as I understand it. Exile is designed to target repeat offenders and get them off the street. You still would of course be able to be charged for whatever crime you committed with appropriate weapon endorsements. But you would not be violating any federal laws pertaining to suspension of legal gun posession