# Another "has this device been used" question: slow acting poison **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 30, 2012, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-has-this-device-been-used-question-slow-acting-poison/611236 "2012-01-30T22:41:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![jharvey963](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/54ee81/32.png) [@jharvey963](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jharvey963)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2012, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-has-this-device-been-used-question-slow-acting-poison/611236/1 "2012-01-30T22:41:44Z")
I thought of another “has this device every been used in a detective (or other) novel”, as suggested by [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=633389). A person is on trial for a crime they allegedly committed. There’s no way that person wants to spend time in prison. In fact, they plan to commit suicide if they are convicted. However, they don’t want to commit suicide before the verdict is read just in case they are acquited. But if they wait until the verdict is read, they will probably be taken into custody immediately, and not have any chance to off themselves. So they take some kind of slow acting poison just before the verdict comes in. If they’re acquited, they will have time to get to their (previously acquired) dose of antidote for the poison. If convicted, they won’t, and will die shortly thereafter. Are there any novels that use this device? And as a bonus question, is there any real poison that would work this way? The poison would have to be slow enough to not kill you for many hours, and not do long lasting damage until just before it kills you. That is, the antidote has to be effective for many hours after the poison is administered. And no, I’m not thinking of doing this (especially since I’m not on trial for anything). 😃 I just read a lot of mystery / detective / lawyer stories and I can’t remember seeing this situation. Thanks, J. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2012, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-has-this-device-been-used-question-slow-acting-poison/611236/2 "2012-01-30T22:54:06Z")
Thallium might work. It can take some time to show signs of toxicity, though it can take a long time to kill you. It has the advantage in this case in that it can be absorbed through the skin, so you can keep some in your pocket and rub your hand over it while you’re in court. It can be treated if steps are taken within 6 hours after the initial dose. Thus, if you were going to be sentenced at 10 AM, you could take the thallium at 9 and, if you’re acquitted, tell the doctor as soon as the sentence is handed down. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2012, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-has-this-device-been-used-question-slow-acting-poison/611236/3 "2012-01-30T23:00:09Z")
I can’t answer if this has been used as a plot device, but I’m pretty sure that no such poison exists. Poisons are usually not very “binary” - they tend to cause damage based on the the amount consumed. Once the damage becomes too great, you die. If you take an antidote (which is pretty rare in itself), then you haven’t reversed the damage already done. One thing I can think of is [Acetaminophen](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paracetamol) (Tylenol, etc.) - if you take the prescribed dosage, your liver is able to detoxify it, and no damage results. If you take too much, it causes acute liver damage, and will kill you. There is an actual antidote that can save you if given soon enough. So, you could take just over the toxic dose beforehand, and then, if found guilty, ask for some tylenol - which would be enough to put you over the edge. But, it would be a very hard thing to pull off - either you would likely cause liver damage, or you would not dose yourself enough to kill. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2012, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-has-this-device-been-used-question-slow-acting-poison/611236/4 "2012-01-30T23:08:35Z")
> [@](#): > > And as a bonus question, is there any real poison that would work this way? The poison would have to be slow enough to not kill you for many hours, and not do long lasting damage until just before it kills you. That is, the antidote has to be effective for many hours after the poison is administered. IANAD but – rabies? It can take more than a week to become symptomatic but if the vaccine is administered before symptoms appear you usually survive. Of course depending on how close the infection was to the nervous system, it might be quicker or slower, but thems the chances you take 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-has-this-device-been-used-question-slow-acting-poison/611236/5 "2012-01-31T12:54:29Z")
The idea of Slow Acting Poison is at the heart of both versions of **D.O.A.** , and of the 1931 German film that inspired them, **Der Mann, der seinen Morder sucht** (and the countless remakes and _homages_ since). In nthe 1950 film they called the poison _luminous toxin_, and I’ve always wondered exactly what it was. The film claims that it actually exists, but coyly doesn’t tell you what it is. I’ve looked, but without success. I suspect it might be a radium compund, if it glows. Someone else evidently wondered too: > [@](#): > > Just curious, but is “luminous toxin” (the poison that slowly killed the character in the 1950 movie D.O.A.) a real poison? According to the movie, the poison is real (from the movie: “``The medical facts in this motion picture are authentic. Luminous toxin is a descriptive term for an actual poison.‘’ — Technical Adviser, Edward F. Dunne, M.D.”) However, after I have searched the web and Wikipedia for “luminous toxin” and only found references to it in articles related to the film (no scientific/medical articles), I am starting to wonder whether “luminous toxin” is real or not. Thanks. 61.94.149.174 06:33, 31 August 2005 (UTC) > A “descriptive term for an actual poison” means thay are describing the toxin rather than giving you it’s name. Medical articles will refer to it by it’s actual name. I could describe milk as “a white liquid complete baby food” but everyone else will still call it milk. Theresa Knott (a tenth stroke) 19:30, 31 August 2005 (UTC) Expect a 40’s film to be very loose with scientific merit. Very roughly, you could describe phosphosous as a luminous toxin. White phosphorous, specifically, glows and is a systemic poison, although mostly known for bone damage. This was probably close enough for the purposes of a sensational movie script. However, having several days of relative health before dying (despite the best medical intervention) is possibly more charactistic of overdose from paracetamol or deadly Amanita mushrooms, both of which cause liver failure that results in death after an initial recovery 131.172.99.15 (talk) 12:44, 23 December 2008 (UTC)snaxalotl Without a reliable citation, phosphorous or one of its compounds is just a guess. I have marked the phosphorous passage ‘citation needed’. I doubt that either of the authors of D.O.A. knew of a specific chemical with the properties described in the film. It’s probably literary invention. Without inside information, we cannot even be sure there really was a medical consultant on the film. David Spector (talk) 16:50, 27 January 2011 (UTC) > **[Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Science/September 2005](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk_archive/Science/September_2005#.22Luminous_toxin.22)** > > uwuwiiw > If an adult human breaks a part of his/her tooth, does the tooth grow or always remains partially broken? If the tooth is pulled out, does a new tooth grow in adults? --anon > who discovered rational numbers? > > My sister's computer is becoming a real pain. While it worked before, suddenly items she tries to download won't show in the traffic screen after clicking download. According to the program she's connected (searches work fine and there's a disconnected option to click in the menu) ... ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-has-this-device-been-used-question-slow-acting-poison/611236/6 "2012-01-31T13:07:50Z")
Actually, I asked about the toxin in DOA on this Board several years ago: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=421369&highlight=luminous+toxin](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=421369&highlight=luminous+toxin) ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-has-this-device-been-used-question-slow-acting-poison/611236/7 "2012-01-31T13:42:47Z")
> [@jharvey963](#): > > A person is on trial for a crime they allegedly committed. There’s no way that person wants to spend time in prison. In fact, they plan to commit suicide if they are convicted. However, they don’t want to commit suicide before the verdict is read just in case they are acquited. But if they wait until the verdict is read, they will probably be taken into custody immediately, and not have any chance to off themselves. > > So they take some kind of slow acting poison just before the verdict comes in. If they’re acquited, they will have time to get to their (previously acquired) dose of antidote for the poison. If convicted, they won’t, and will die shortly thereafter. If they don’t have time to kill themselves after the verdict is read, then what makes you think they’d have time to take an antidote? If they’ve got just enough time to consume an antidote, then presumably they’d also have time to consume a quick-acting poison, thus obviating the need for the slow-acting one. I doubt this plot device has ever been used because it’s got a gaping hole in it. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-has-this-device-been-used-question-slow-acting-poison/611236/8 "2012-01-31T14:39:11Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > If they don’t have time to kill themselves after the verdict is read, then what makes you think they’d have time to take an antidote? If they’ve got just enough time to consume an antidote, then presumably they’d also have time to consume a quick-acting poison, thus obviating the need for the slow-acting one. > > I doubt this plot device has ever been used because it’s got a gaping hole in it. They’d only be taking the antidote if they were found not guilty and freed, thus not under the constant watch of guards. ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-has-this-device-been-used-question-slow-acting-poison/611236/9 "2012-01-31T15:29:13Z")
Ah, so they would. My apologies for the oversight. ---
**Author:** ![bouv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc8723/32.png) [@bouv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bouv)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-has-this-device-been-used-question-slow-acting-poison/611236/10 "2012-01-31T16:30:13Z")
> [@beowulff](#): > > I can’t answer if this has been used as a plot > One thing I can think of is [Acetaminophen](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paracetamol) (Tylenol, etc.) - if you take the prescribed dosage, your liver is able to detoxify it, and no damage results. If you take too much, it causes acute liver damage, and will kill you. There is an actual antidote that can save you if given soon enough. > > So, you could take just over the toxic dose beforehand, and then, if found guilty, ask for some tylenol - which would be enough to put you over the edge. > But, it would be a very hard thing to pull off - either you would likely cause liver damage, or you would not dose yourself enough to kill. Isn’t acetaminophen poisoning excruciatingly long and painful? ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-has-this-device-been-used-question-slow-acting-poison/611236/11 "2012-01-31T16:35:20Z")
Not quite the same scenario, but close: At one point in the _Dresden Files_ novel _Grave Peril_, Harry Dresden is about to be forced into servitude to his fairy godmother (and possibly transformed into one of her dogs). Since she wants him alive, he swallows a Destroying Angel (_Amanita virosa_) mushroom and blackmails her into letting him go with the threat of his own death; she can’t save him, but a hospital might. After she lets him go, he takes a dose of milk thistle extract, which is a partial antidote that reduces and delays the effects enough for him to get proper treatment. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-has-this-device-been-used-question-slow-acting-poison/611236/12 "2012-02-01T00:25:20Z")
This might be rather far fetched but I remember hearing that someone who has overdosed on a opioid with a long half life like methadone might require more than one dose of naloxone in the ER, because the antagonist wears off before the opioid is out of their system so they could go into OD again. So your fictional character takes a massive overdose of methadone and a dose of naloxone right before the hearing which should buy them a couple hours. Then if they are released they rush to their car or whatever and take another dose of naloxone and keep taking it til the methadone is out of their system, but if they are convicted and taken into custody the initial dose will wear off and they will OD on the methadone. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-has-this-device-been-used-question-slow-acting-poison/611236/13 "2012-02-01T02:58:31Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > IANAD but – rabies? It can take more than a week to become symptomatic but if the vaccine is administered before symptoms appear you usually survive. Of course depending on how close the infection was to the nervous system, it might be quicker or slower, but thems the chances you take 🙂 I forgot to add, that once you DO become symptomatic, your survival rate is between 1% and [5%](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milwaukee_protocol), so I think it’s the front-runner for this sort of thing so far, since once they notice you become rabid and administer the “antidote”, it’s already too late. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-has-this-device-been-used-question-slow-acting-poison/611236/14 "2012-02-01T03:15:19Z")
Take a lot of poison immediately before the verdict. If acquitted, treat yourself to a “victory vomit” right there in the courtroom.