# Another how far up shit creek is California thread ($20 minimum wage) **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 14, 2024, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-how-far-up-shit-creek-is-california-thread-20-minimum-wage/997536 "2024-02-14T02:51:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2024, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-how-far-up-shit-creek-is-california-thread-20-minimum-wage/997536/81 "2024-02-15T05:34:02Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The learning curve to work a grill or a drive-thru might not be a steep one, but it’s not something just anyone can do. > … > My cite is that I worked ten years in fast food at all levels from fry cook to restaurant manager. I didn’t say that anyone could do it, just that almost anyone can fairly easily get into a position to find out. My first interview in high school boiled down to, “Do you use drugs?” and, “Will you reliably show up on time?” Next schedule I was slinging pizzas. I had a repeat of that interview while I was in college with the same outcome. Well, almost the same outcome. I wound up frying chicken for two years. So yes, a person can develop skills while slinging hash, but they just had to have a pulse to be able to learn. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2024, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-how-far-up-shit-creek-is-california-thread-20-minimum-wage/997536/82 "2024-02-15T05:52:50Z")
Skilled or not is irrelevant. What matters is that labor is not immune to the laws of supply and demand. Regardless of what people say about wanting a so-called worker to make their behavior stands in stark contrast when they buy from literal slaves to save a few dollars. For services that can’t yet be automated their is some ability to mandate a wage floor but outside of that capital moves to where labor is cheap or people skirt the law by dealing with labor that is disincentivized to raise a stink. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2024, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-how-far-up-shit-creek-is-california-thread-20-minimum-wage/997536/83 "2024-02-15T06:13:40Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > It’s that darned 13th Amendment getting in the way of free enterprise. Funny you should say that, since fast food places in at least one state have been caught using constitutionally permitted slave labor to staff their kitchens. > **[Fast-food chains use Alabama prison inmates as slave labor, lawsuit alleges](https://www.al.com/news/2023/12/fast-food-chains-use-alabama-prison-inmates-as-slave-labor-lawsuit-alleges.html?utm_source=reddit.com)** > > The number of prisoners granted parole has plummeted, and prison officials force many of those inmates to work off site in a scheme that generates $450 million a year for the state, the lawsuit said. I can’t claim to have all the solutions here. I tried to be a “good boss” when I was in fast food, but it’s a system that incentivizes exploitative behavior, and my bosses forced me all too often to be the bad guy who was cutting labor hours with no notice, rewriting schedules on the fly to meet targets, cut or lay off good workers or find any excuse to deny raise requests, and so on. I’m glad that I now work a quasi-union job where me and my coworkers are protected from arbitary or capricious firings or labor cuts and we have collective bargaining rights, and I’m in a position where the only time I have to be the bad guy is when refusing alcohol sales or kicking out unruly customers or busting shoplifters. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2024, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-how-far-up-shit-creek-is-california-thread-20-minimum-wage/997536/84 "2024-02-15T06:18:08Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Anyone who thinks fast food is “unskilled” work has never worked fast food. I worked for McDonald’s and Pizza Hut. Granted it was 40 years ago but there is no way to describe it other than unskilled. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2024, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-how-far-up-shit-creek-is-california-thread-20-minimum-wage/997536/85 "2024-02-15T08:25:10Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > A living wage for a single person with a roommate is very different from that of a single parent with 12 kids. Most “should” statements involving living wages are too vague to constitute being actual arguments. It is generally defined in accordance with the price of a one bedroom apartment. I haven’t seen any arguments that living wage should be defined in accordance with six times the average number of children. Can you give us a cite for that argument? ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2024, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-how-far-up-shit-creek-is-california-thread-20-minimum-wage/997536/86 "2024-02-15T11:10:55Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > It is generally defined in accordance with the price of a one bedroom apartment. I haven’t seen any arguments that living wage should be defined in accordance with six times the average number of children. > A living wage is what one full-time worker must earn on an hourly basis to help cover the cost of their family’s minimum basic needs where they live while still being self-sufficient. [https://livingwage.mit.edu/pages/faqs](https://livingwage.mit.edu/pages/faqs) Which means it varies by family type. The MIT project, oft cited in these boards, calculates it for twelve family types, 1–2 adults with/without both working, and 0–3 children. They don’t bother to calculate up to twelve, but nobody is going to argue that increasing the number of children doesn’t increase a family’s basic needs. The federal government certainly doesn’t with their poverty lines and SNAP criteria. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2024, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-how-far-up-shit-creek-is-california-thread-20-minimum-wage/997536/87 "2024-02-15T11:53:01Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > Can you give us a cite for that argument? It turns out punching > what is a living wage into Google returns the MIT project first, followed by sites with similar definitions. Absolutely nothing about one bedroom apartments in the first few results. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2024, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-how-far-up-shit-creek-is-california-thread-20-minimum-wage/997536/88 "2024-02-15T12:09:09Z")
The term, in the context of labor as a resource, doesn’t mean “workers who have no skills.” It means “jobs which do not require specialized knowledge.” If a worker can show up and hit the ground running with little or no training, it’s unskilled labor. It’s a shitty term and reinforces an idea that these jobs are low **value** , and gives people leeway to say things like “well if they want to get paid more maybe they should get a grownup job.” ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2024, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-how-far-up-shit-creek-is-california-thread-20-minimum-wage/997536/89 "2024-02-15T12:24:33Z")
> [@Common\_Tater](#): > > Yep. Already a done deal practically. Robots don’t call in sick, don’t need a health care program, workers comp, OSHA, none of that. Robots break down and need repair. So the fantasy that you buy robots to do the work and never have to worry afterwards is just that, fantasy. So then it comes down to whether or not over time human workers (with their call in sick, etc.) are more or less expensive than robot workers (with their breakdowns, etc.) ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2024, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-how-far-up-shit-creek-is-california-thread-20-minimum-wage/997536/90 "2024-02-15T12:28:44Z")
Not even that; in practice it means “poor people jobs”. And leads to bosses who buy their own propaganda making a mess when they throw _actual_ unskilled people at it and watch things crash and burn. At any rate one important point is that poorly paid people can’t buy what is being sold. The constant drive to lower wages from business shrinks their own customer base, but they are ideologically devoted to ignoring that. ---
**Author:** ![Translucent\_Daydream](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/translucent_daydream/32/16170_2.png) [@Translucent\_Daydream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Translucent_Daydream)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2024, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-how-far-up-shit-creek-is-california-thread-20-minimum-wage/997536/91 "2024-02-15T12:57:33Z")
I dunno why this is going to break things. I’m not that smart of a dude, but they have been paying $20 an hour or more for fast food workers in my part of Vermont since I’ve lived here (second half of 2020). Burger King seems to be Burger Kinging along just fine. And they are hiring, full time and part time according to the flyer taped on the drive-thru window. The subway down the street from my job says they start at 18.95 an hour for entry level, over 22.00 for shift leads. Its built into the side of a gas station. ---
**Author:** ![SuntanLotion](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suntanlotion/32/16165_2.png) [@SuntanLotion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuntanLotion)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2024, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-how-far-up-shit-creek-is-california-thread-20-minimum-wage/997536/92 "2024-02-15T13:42:20Z")
Wow. Here in Ohio, the highest I’ve seen everywhere I’ve applied is 14. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2024, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-how-far-up-shit-creek-is-california-thread-20-minimum-wage/997536/93 "2024-02-15T14:16:47Z")
Trying to address inflation in the housing market, by inflating prices in the labor market, seems to me unlikely to reduce inflation. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2024, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-how-far-up-shit-creek-is-california-thread-20-minimum-wage/997536/94 "2024-02-15T14:24:40Z")
The question is, to what degree will it advance housing inflation? Where I live, housing prices are completely out of control–not due to high wages, but in spite of low wages. It’s a community with an extremely active tourism promotion board, with huge amounts of hotel taxes going toward ads encouraging people to vacation here. As a result, lots of housing is converted to AirB&Bs or the like, and landlords are raking in the cash thereby. The smaller stock of long-term rentals are much sought-after, and landlords are jacking up the rents to whatever they think that they can get. Raising the minimum wage here wouldn’t have much effect at all on that: landlords are still going to charge whatever they can get, it’s just that the working-class folks who are being priced out of the area would no longer be as priced out. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2024, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-how-far-up-shit-creek-is-california-thread-20-minimum-wage/997536/95 "2024-02-15T14:27:57Z")
> [@Projammer](#): > > Profit margins are notoriously thin (3-7% depending on who you ask) for restaurants so price increases are inevitable. OK, but _how much_ of a price increase? Anyone currently making $16-$20 who is eligible under the new law will be bumped up to $20, so the average wage increase across all eligible workers will be something under 25%. How much of a fast food meal’s cost is currently attributed to employees making less than $20/hr? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2024, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-how-far-up-shit-creek-is-california-thread-20-minimum-wage/997536/96 "2024-02-15T14:52:15Z")
> [@Translucent\_Daydream](#): > > I dunno why this is going to break things. I’m not that smart of a dude, but they have been paying $20 an hour or more for fast food workers in my part of Vermont since I’ve lived here (second half of 2020). As you note, a twenty dollar an hour minimum wage exists in many places and businesses in those places haven’t collapsed. What’s happening in California is a show. Business owners are trying to pretend they will collapse in order to try to reverse the minimum wage hike and increase the profits of the business owners. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2024, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-how-far-up-shit-creek-is-california-thread-20-minimum-wage/997536/97 "2024-02-15T15:29:06Z")
> [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#): > > That is what the boomers in this thread seem to think because maybe that’s how it was in the 1980s but have any of you actually stepped into a fast food place recently? It’s not teenagers working, it’s 20-40 year old adults. > > (And does no one buy fast food during the day? Who do they think is magically working during school hours if they think only teenagers work fast food jobs?) Around here (the Corpus Christi area in Texas) I’m sometimes served by someone who appears to be in their 50s or 60s, especially during the weekday daytime shifts when it’s not summer. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2024, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-how-far-up-shit-creek-is-california-thread-20-minimum-wage/997536/98 "2024-02-15T18:50:02Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Robots break down and need repair. So the fantasy that you buy robots to do the work and never have to worry afterwards is just that, fantasy. So then it comes down to whether or not over time human workers (with their call in sick, etc.) are more or less expensive than robot workers (with their breakdowns, etc.) Depreciation on the robots is probably going to cost more than maintenance. Or interest payments on the loans to buy them. A big electronics company didn’t fully automate its factories in SE Asia because the workers worked for less than the depreciation on the machines that could replace them. Probably hurt productivity and quality, but that’s not as easy to measure. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2024, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-how-far-up-shit-creek-is-california-thread-20-minimum-wage/997536/99 "2024-02-15T19:36:49Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > That’s enough to pay for almost 400 delivery drivers getting 40 hours a week at the new minimum wage. Yep, they can afford it. > [@PastTense](#): > > What possible rationale is there for just doing an increase for two industries: minimum wage laws should apply across the board. Because Fast Food workers are treated like crap. They rarely get FT hours and they rarely get benefits. And their job is also crap. > [@PastTense](#): > > But some posters here really think the bottom worker at McDonald’s should earn $40,000 a year here (assuming a full-time job)? That assumption is incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2024, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-how-far-up-shit-creek-is-california-thread-20-minimum-wage/997536/100 "2024-02-15T19:49:54Z")
Robots are expensive. People can be mass produced by unskilled labor. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-how-far-up-shit-creek-is-california-thread-20-minimum-wage/997536.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-how-far-up-shit-creek-is-california-thread-20-minimum-wage/997536.md?page=6)