# Another how far up shit creek is California thread ($20 minimum wage) **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 14, 2024, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-how-far-up-shit-creek-is-california-thread-20-minimum-wage/997536 "2024-02-14T02:51:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2024, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-how-far-up-shit-creek-is-california-thread-20-minimum-wage/997536/121 "2024-02-16T17:01:45Z")
Ok, the Big Mac is $5.19 for the sandwich alone here at my local Chicago McD’s, so it’s actually more expensive than the In N Out Double Double (at least the one I last had this year in Chandler/Phoenix). Also worth noting is that In N Out uses slightly bigger patties, at 8-to-1 (pound) to McD’s 10-to-1. ETA: OK, I could customize a McD’s double cheeseburger with a “regular” amount of lettuce, tomato, and mayonnaise (to simulate the burger sauce–I don’t have an option to put BigMac sauce on my app, which is closest to In N Out’s burger sauce), and that’s $4.99, so a few cents cheaper than an In N Out, but, also, 10-to-1 patties, not 8-to-1. And I’m sure they’re stingier about the add-ons than In n Out. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2024, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-how-far-up-shit-creek-is-california-thread-20-minimum-wage/997536/122 "2024-02-16T17:36:54Z")
I presume you are referring to the fact that in some states, tipped employees have a lower minimum wage than others. California is not one of those states. In California, tipped employees have the same minimum wage as everybody else. That’s been the state law for decades. ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2024, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-how-far-up-shit-creek-is-california-thread-20-minimum-wage/997536/123 "2024-02-16T18:16:35Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > In N Out elevated prices? Have you been to an In N Out? It was pre-covid and I don’t remember what city I was in (not Phoenix) and my double double was noticeably higher than the Wendy’s double I had earlier in the week. I don’t know if it was specific to the city or even just the store. > [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > You realize that part of the cost of In-N-Out is due to its freshness, right? How so? The only thing that could really be fresher than any other chain would be if the patties were never frozen. Veggies are refrigerated and have the same shelf life for everyone. > [@filmore](#): > > It could be that places like In-N-Out are busy enough that they generate enough revenue to be profitable paying a high salary and selling product at low prices. I haven’t seen anywhere, but is $20 standard for all I&O stores? Or only in some locations. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2024, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-how-far-up-shit-creek-is-california-thread-20-minimum-wage/997536/124 "2024-02-16T18:19:54Z")
> [@Projammer](#): > > The only thing that could really be fresher than any other chain would be if the patties were never frozen. That’s I&O’s main thing. Never frozen. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2024, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-how-far-up-shit-creek-is-california-thread-20-minimum-wage/997536/125 "2024-02-16T18:31:36Z")
> [@Projammer](#): > > It was pre-covid and I don’t remember what city I was in (not Phoenix) and my double double was noticeably higher than the Wendy’s double I had earlier in the week. That’s interesting, as they’re usually pretty closely priced, from what I noticed. I’m looking at pre-Covid prices in LA, and they were $4.35 in 2019; $3.75 in 2017. At any rate, they track pretty darned close to most of your Big 3 for equivalent products. Like I said, they are not a tier or two up in pricing like Five Guys or Smashburger or Shake Shack. I was shocked the first time I went to one, as I expected prices to be sky high given the reputation. Were you comparing it to a Double Dave’s or something else? I’m looking at menus c. 2020 in LA, and a Double Dave was already $5.99 for sandwich only then. (That said, they do have coupons and deals all the time, it seems.) I believe it was only last year that In N Out crested $5 for a double double. ---
**Author:** ![Mark\_Finn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/34f0e0/32.png) [@Mark\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mark_Finn)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2024, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-how-far-up-shit-creek-is-california-thread-20-minimum-wage/997536/126 "2024-02-16T18:31:56Z")
Suppose your minimum wage increases from $16 to $20. So - everyone (who doesn’t get laid off) in that fast-food restaurant making $16 will be making $20. What about those already making $20? They will probably stay at $20, or get a small increase - but not as much as the 25% that the $16 workers got. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2024, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-how-far-up-shit-creek-is-california-thread-20-minimum-wage/997536/127 "2024-02-16T18:53:20Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > That’s interesting, as they’re usually pretty closely priced, from what I noticed. At the moment, in my part of suburban Houston, a double-double is going for $5.30. Sandwiches from the Big 3 aren’t much less than that. Maybe ~10-15% more if you find one of the cheaper franchises. I don’t know if that counts as “significantly” From what I recall, starting pay out for them in this area is around the $10-$11 mark, which is noticeably higher than the wage you’d get at one of the Big 3, which would be the national minimum wage ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2024, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-how-far-up-shit-creek-is-california-thread-20-minimum-wage/997536/128 "2024-02-16T18:55:08Z")
Personally, the cost of my time waiting in line at In-N-Out makes it unattractive to me. I don’t think the minimum wage affects that much. > [@silenus](#): > > > [@Projammer](#): > > > > The only thing that could really be fresher than any other chain would be if the patties were never frozen. > > That’s I&O’s main thing. Never frozen. Wendy’s never freezes hamburgers. And McDonald’s quarter-pounders are never frozen as well. I’m not sure about other chains, but never frozen is not a particularly large competitive advantage. ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2024, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-how-far-up-shit-creek-is-california-thread-20-minimum-wage/997536/129 "2024-02-16T18:57:33Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > That’s interesting, as they’re usually pretty closely priced Okay. Now you’ve got me doubting myself. Maybe it was actually a 5 Guys or other upscale burger emporium. It has been several years… ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2024, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-how-far-up-shit-creek-is-california-thread-20-minimum-wage/997536/130 "2024-02-16T19:06:41Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > At the moment, in my part of suburban Houston, a double-double is going for $5.30. Sandwiches from the Big 3 aren’t much less than that. Maybe ~10-15% more if you find one of the cheaper franchises. I don’t know if that counts as “significantly” Yeah, out of curiosity, I checked the McDonald’s in Katy, and a Big Mac there is $4.59, so there it is cheaper than the In N Out, probably partly because of the Texas minimum wage, I’d guess. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2024, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-how-far-up-shit-creek-is-california-thread-20-minimum-wage/997536/131 "2024-02-16T19:17:52Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I would expect them to invest in automation, honestly. When minimum wage goes up like that, it makes things like a patty-cooking robot a lot more attractive. How flexible is a patty-cooking robot? Can it switch over to fryer duty when that part of the kitchen is busy? The human it replaced can switch over to operating the fryer, or cleaning the dining room or taking out the trash. I question the value of single-purpose robots. ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2024, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-how-far-up-shit-creek-is-california-thread-20-minimum-wage/997536/132 "2024-02-16T19:24:11Z")
Generally speaking, a single purpose bot is going to be simpler and more durable/dependable than a more complicated multi function device. Just like a copier and a scanner are going to be easier to maintain than a combo unit: Cite. Was my job for many years. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2024, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-how-far-up-shit-creek-is-california-thread-20-minimum-wage/997536/133 "2024-02-16T19:33:00Z")
Yeah, I’m not sure that those replacements for people really do all that much good in terms of lowering the number of staff. I was at a McDonald’s a few weeks ago with ordering kiosks. There were still two employees who I assume were taking orders in addition to helping people with the kiosks and bringing food to the tables. Thing is at that time of day. even without the kiosks there would have been two cashiers. And some places are slow enough at certain hours to only need a couple of people working - in my fast-food days, sometimes one person would be the cashier and also clean the dining room while another made the fries, burgers, sandwiches , chicken and whatever else came from the kitchen. Two people plus a manager total - robots really aren’t going to save anything on that shift. ---
**Author:** ![wguy123](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wguy123/32/3161_2.png) [@wguy123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wguy123)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2024, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-how-far-up-shit-creek-is-california-thread-20-minimum-wage/997536/134 "2024-02-16T20:16:36Z")
> [@Mark\_Finn](#): > > Suppose your minimum wage increases from $16 to $20. So - everyone (who doesn’t get laid off) in that fast-food restaurant making $16 will be making $20. What about those already making $20? They will probably stay at $20, or get a small increase - but not as much as the 25% that the $16 workers got. And? Salary compressions happens in lots of places and not just those making minimum wage. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2024, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-how-far-up-shit-creek-is-california-thread-20-minimum-wage/997536/135 "2024-02-16T20:26:46Z")
> [@Projammer](#): > > I couldn’t find any official numbers, but the general consensus was that I&O profit margin is 2x to 3x (10-15%) fast food standards due to their business model and elevated prices. Their business model primarily being their limited inventory. > One variety each You get a fast-food burger, the staff gets a living wage, the company is doing business. Where’s the problem? “but but I want someone to get paid less so I can have a fancy burger at the same price” sounds like a you problem. Everybody else is happy with this. ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2024, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-how-far-up-shit-creek-is-california-thread-20-minimum-wage/997536/136 "2024-02-16T21:22:22Z")
This might have been covered above and I missed it but… how do other countries manage it? I saw a meme about this a few days ago, I cna’t find it but I think it was about Denmark maybe? It went something like: US Mcdonalds: Wage: $9 No benefits, no health insurance, no union. Big Mac: $5.66 Denmark Mcdonalds Wage: $22 6 weeks vacation, 1 year paid family leave, life insurance + pension, unionized. Big Mac: $4.90 Assuming it’s true… why the hell can’t we demand the same here in the US? ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2024, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-how-far-up-shit-creek-is-california-thread-20-minimum-wage/997536/137 "2024-02-17T01:21:22Z")
> [@Kinthalis](#): > > Assuming it’s true… According to the previously mentioned [Big Mac Index](https://www.economist.com/big-mac-index), A Big Mac in Denmark is currently the same price as in the US. [Snopes says the worker wage is “over $20”](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/mcdonalds-workers-denmark/) and the benefits apply to all workers in all industries. > [@Kinthalis](#): > > why the hell can’t we demand the same here in the US? Damn good question. I would love for an economist to break it down Barney style for me. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2024, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-how-far-up-shit-creek-is-california-thread-20-minimum-wage/997536/138 "2024-02-17T01:29:44Z")
> [@Kinthalis](#): > > This might have been covered above and I missed it but… how do other countries manage it? I posted about this a ways upthread. I live in Luxembourg, one of the wealthiest countries in the world, with one of the higher cost-of-living baselines in Europe, a livable minimum wage, and extremely strong labor protections. **[And we’ve got no problem at all supporting fast-food restaurants.](https://today.rtl.lu/news/luxembourg/a/2163841.html)** The problem, clearly, is not in the cost of labor. ---
**Author:** ![Sylvanz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/fbc32d/32.png) [@Sylvanz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sylvanz)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2024, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-how-far-up-shit-creek-is-california-thread-20-minimum-wage/997536/139 "2024-02-17T05:59:29Z")
How about the same answer we always get about universal health care? Because the US is _different_. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2024, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-how-far-up-shit-creek-is-california-thread-20-minimum-wage/997536/140 "2024-02-17T07:13:45Z")
Indeed. I anticipated that in an earlier post above. > [@Cervaise](#): > > “But the US is different!” the free-marketers will squawk vaguely. > > It’s true. The US is indeed different. But not in the flattering ways they imagine. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-how-far-up-shit-creek-is-california-thread-20-minimum-wage/997536.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-how-far-up-shit-creek-is-california-thread-20-minimum-wage/997536.md?page=8)