# Another how far up shit creek is California thread ($20 minimum wage) **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 14, 2024, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-how-far-up-shit-creek-is-california-thread-20-minimum-wage/997536 "2024-02-14T02:51:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2024, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-how-far-up-shit-creek-is-california-thread-20-minimum-wage/997536/141 "2024-02-17T07:30:50Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > How flexible is a patty-cooking robot? Can it switch over to fryer duty when that part of the kitchen is busy? The human it replaced can switch over to operating the fryer, or cleaning the dining room or taking out the trash. I question the value of single-purpose robots. No, but the fryerbot already has that station covered. And McDonald’s already has automated drink dispensers that you can watch through the drive-through window at some places. Burger assembly and some of the prep is about the only part of a McWendy King I can’t see a way to easily and cheaply automate. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2024, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-how-far-up-shit-creek-is-california-thread-20-minimum-wage/997536/142 "2024-02-17T08:26:14Z")
On the topic of automation, there’s a chain called Caliburger (which started in China as an unlicensed knockoff of In-n-Out and serves a similar menu) which uses a robot to cook patties and cook fries. Neat little concept, but they still need humans to assemble sandwiches and package things and hand it off to the customer. When I can punch into a kiosk that I want a double meat animal style with extra pickles and no lettuce, and it pops out two or three minutes later like some sort of restaurant-sized vending machine, then it’ll be time for human workers to panic. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/yXdrfc5ZVi4/hqdefault.jpg "Meet 'Flippy': The robot that's cooking burgers at this Shoreline restaurant") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXdrfc5ZVi4) ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2024, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-how-far-up-shit-creek-is-california-thread-20-minimum-wage/997536/143 "2024-02-17T09:13:50Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > You get a fast-food burger, the staff gets a living wage, the company is doing business. Where’s the problem? > > “but but I want someone to get paid less so I can have a fancy burger at the same price” sounds like a you problem. Everybody else is happy with this. It is entertaining to see how the goalposts shift. Back when globalization and offshoring were ramping up and warnings were given about losing manufacturing to more competitive nations and said warnings were dismissed who knew then that the arguments would shift to the strategically essential burger industry. > [@Cervaise](#): > > I posted about this a ways upthread. I live in Luxembourg, one of the wealthiest countries in the world, with one of the higher cost-of-living baselines in Europe, a livable minimum wage, and extremely strong labor protections. > > **[And we’ve got no problem at all supporting fast-food restaurants.](https://today.rtl.lu/news/luxembourg/a/2163841.html)** > > The problem, clearly, is not in the cost of labor. [Luxembourg GDP per capita PPP (tradingeconomics.com)](https://tradingeconomics.com/luxembourg/gdp-per-capita-ppp#:~:text=The%20Gross%20Domestic%20Product%20per%20capita%20in%20Luxembourg,equivalent%20to%20663%20percent%20of%20the%20world%27s%20average.) With that sort of median income, buying a bucket of KFC shouldn’t be problematic. Not everywhere is as wealthy and the impact of labor costs, which are always ultimately passed onto the consumer, are more meaningful. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2024, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-how-far-up-shit-creek-is-california-thread-20-minimum-wage/997536/144 "2024-02-17T12:41:18Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > It is entertaining to see how the goalposts shift. Back when globalization and offshoring were ramping up and warnings were given about losing manufacturing to more competitive nations and said warnings were dismissed who knew then that the arguments would shift to the strategically essential burger industry. I’m sure there’s a point in here that relates to something in this thread? Offshoring/globalization was always and only bad for workers. In-And-Out paying a $20 wage showed you can give workers _more_ and still make money, with the only cost being a modest tradeoff to burger topping diversity. That’s not a hypothetical, that’s a real-world win-win outcome. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2024, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-how-far-up-shit-creek-is-california-thread-20-minimum-wage/997536/145 "2024-02-17T12:52:38Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > That’s not a hypothetical, that’s a real-world win-win outcome. - No, it’s not. The ever powerful SHAREHOLDER is being cheated of their slightly higher return. /s ---
**Author:** ![Wolf333](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf333/32/3460_2.png) [@Wolf333](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolf333)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2024, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-how-far-up-shit-creek-is-california-thread-20-minimum-wage/997536/146 "2024-02-17T12:56:15Z")
And don’t forget: 1. Leaving the company after only a few months shows a lack of loyalty to the company 2. Job hopping looks bad on a resume ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2024, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-how-far-up-shit-creek-is-california-thread-20-minimum-wage/997536/147 "2024-02-17T13:12:54Z")
Is there a way to look at some of the big FF corps’ margins over time compared to hourly wages? I’m sure it’s complicated by the fact that so many are franchises. It would be interesting to see if they are making more money than in the past, and if that extra margin is coming from stagnant wages. I am so far from an economist that I’m not even sure I’m articulating this right. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2024, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-how-far-up-shit-creek-is-california-thread-20-minimum-wage/997536/148 "2024-02-17T19:44:10Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Offshoring/globalization was always and only bad for workers. Well, it helped all the offshore and global workers. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Librarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_librarian/32/402_2.png) [@The\_Librarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Librarian)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2024, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-how-far-up-shit-creek-is-california-thread-20-minimum-wage/997536/149 "2024-02-17T23:02:00Z")
So the shift manager gets a raise as well? Good! We all should get wages that allow us to live. Arguing it isn’t fair someone else get the same as you is an argument for a raise, not an argument against _their_ raise. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2024, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-how-far-up-shit-creek-is-california-thread-20-minimum-wage/997536/150 "2024-02-17T23:11:00Z")
The big FF chains are often built by multi-million dollar investment groups. The McDonalds, Chick-fil-as, In-And-Outs, etc. can likely deal with a $20 minimum wage since these are corporate entities that have made their FF investment in a way that maximizes their profits. But there are lots of smaller FF places which are single-owner and they are just getting by. In many cases, buying into a franchise gets you the equivalent of a minimum wage job when you figure in the income you make divided by the hours you work. These smaller FF restaurants will have trouble increasing wages since there isn’t a whole lot of extra profit to squeeze out. One thing I’m wondering is if the bigger chains will come out ahead from these smaller restaurants going under. If random places like “Pita World”, “Donuts4U”, “Dave’s Drive-thru”, etc. go under, then the bigger places like In-N-Out, Olive Garden, Panera, etc. get more business. These more expensive restaurants will typically have backers with deeper pockets to help ride things out until they settle out. Maybe they lose money when the wage goes to $20, but they know it’s just a matter of time until the smaller places shut down and they reap extra business from less competition. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2024, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-how-far-up-shit-creek-is-california-thread-20-minimum-wage/997536/151 "2024-02-17T23:16:02Z")
The new wage only applies to businesses with 60 or more locations. Mom & Pop are just fine. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2024, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-how-far-up-shit-creek-is-california-thread-20-minimum-wage/997536/152 "2024-02-17T23:33:22Z")
> [@The\_Librarian](#): > > We all should get wages that allow us to live. > Arguing it isn’t fair someone else get the same as you is an argument for a raise, not an argument against _their_ raise. When I was working minimum age jobs in the Stone Age a law had gone into effect that raised it from $2.90 to $3.15 to $3.35. I recall getting a raise from $3.15 to $3.35 and then it went up and I was back to minimum. I definitely didn’t think it was fair. I was 16 years old though. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2024, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-how-far-up-shit-creek-is-california-thread-20-minimum-wage/997536/153 "2024-02-17T23:35:13Z")
I thought that meant 60 location nationwide? I’m assuming that a place like Quiznos that has 100+ locations nationwide would fall under this requirement regardless of whether the location is owned by the Quiznos corporation or by a franchisee. A franchisee may just be scraping by with their one or two Quiznos locations. Quiznos Inc. could shuffle things around among all their corporate stores and be okay, but the person with one or two might get squeezed out. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2024, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-how-far-up-shit-creek-is-california-thread-20-minimum-wage/997536/154 "2024-02-17T23:38:44Z")
It’s right there in the first sentence - shifting the goalposts to find another bugaboo to expound about. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2024, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-how-far-up-shit-creek-is-california-thread-20-minimum-wage/997536/155 "2024-02-17T23:40:01Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > (a) Fast food employees should be subsidized by family members working elsewhere: parents, spouses, etc. > (b) Fast food employees should be poor, wearing newspapers in their clothing for insulation and stealing kitchen supplies from Walmart to get by > (c) People should just suck it up for the first couple years, drawing from their trust funds if they have to > (d) Fast food employees aren’t really people—we’ll just have minorities work these jobs. They don’t need money the way that other people do. > (e) Fast food employees should always have a second job. Rest is for the weak: how much trouble can a chronically fatigued food service worker cause, anyway? (f) People should learn a trade to earn more money and postpone children until they can afford to care for them. This is universal and not just for “fast food employees”. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2024, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-how-far-up-shit-creek-is-california-thread-20-minimum-wage/997536/156 "2024-02-17T23:44:28Z")
My understanding ( and I could be wrong) is that it will affect Mom and Pop because the "60 locations nationwide " refers to the chain, not the individual owner. If own a single Subway franchise , I’ll have to raise the pay, but if I own all ten locations of Doreen’s Subs, this law will not apply to me. And Panera or anyplace else that bakes and sells bread as a stand-alone product is exempt altogether, because apparently the definition of “fast food” does not include bakeries that also sell other foods. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2024, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-how-far-up-shit-creek-is-california-thread-20-minimum-wage/997536/157 "2024-02-17T23:47:46Z")
They will - at the government agency where I worked pre-retirement, the union staff got raises for a few years and the non-union managers didn’t. They couldn’t fill the management jobs for a couple of years (until those jobs got a raise) because it would have been either a pay cut or a tiny raise and no one would take it. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2024, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-how-far-up-shit-creek-is-california-thread-20-minimum-wage/997536/158 "2024-02-17T23:50:44Z")
> [@The\_Librarian](#): > > Arguing it isn’t fair someone else get the same as you is an argument for a raise, not an argument against _their_ raise. I disagree. It jacks up the cost of living with higher prices which LOWERS purchase power. Your argument for a raise doesn’t mean it’s available. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2024, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-how-far-up-shit-creek-is-california-thread-20-minimum-wage/997536/159 "2024-02-18T00:49:41Z")
So you’re saying that nobody should work fast food, or that only independently wealthy people should? How do you pay the rent while you’re learning your trade? People who think it’s easy clearly were never on their own. And who said anything about children? I mean, I disagree that poor people shouldn’t be allowed children (that is what you’re saying), but that’s quite a separate issue. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2024, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-how-far-up-shit-creek-is-california-thread-20-minimum-wage/997536/160 "2024-02-18T01:42:33Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > People who think it’s easy clearly were never on their own. All my friends worked their way through college. But you don’t have to go to college. Many trades such as plumbing and construction work on an apprenticeship basis. We worked at less-than-minimum wage jobs to help pay for it while in HS. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-how-far-up-shit-creek-is-california-thread-20-minimum-wage/997536.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-how-far-up-shit-creek-is-california-thread-20-minimum-wage/997536.md?page=9)