# Another Iraqi Smoking Gun, and the Dog That Didn't Bark **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 3, 2005, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-iraqi-smoking-gun-and-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/302262 "2005-05-03T19:38:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-iraqi-smoking-gun-and-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/302262/181 "2005-05-06T03:52:15Z")
> [@Uncommon Sense](#): > > Should have said this earlier. > Among other things, I admire your patriotism and your passion. I’m proud to have you as a fellow citizen. Together. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-iraqi-smoking-gun-and-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/302262/182 "2005-05-06T03:58:30Z")
Is **Scylla** here, or did somebody just leave? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-iraqi-smoking-gun-and-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/302262/183 "2005-05-06T04:03:30Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I have limited expertise. Perhaps friend **Doggyknees** or **Polycarp** can direct our attention to the Scriptural passages concerning pre-emptive strikes on false pretenses. [Emperor Smith]The eleventh commandment. Thou shalt not get away with it.[/Emperor Smith] ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-iraqi-smoking-gun-and-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/302262/184 "2005-05-06T04:04:00Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > Honestly, after Clinton I stopped caring. They all freaking lie, and right at us these days. It’s like being outraged that the Mob would kill you after promising not to if you told them where the money was. Where’s the ‘blah’ smiley? Yeah, though there’s a slight difference between covering up a blow job and starting a war. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-iraqi-smoking-gun-and-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/302262/185 "2005-05-06T04:04:36Z")
> [@Uncommon Sense](#): > > Should have said this earlier. > Among other things, I admire your patriotism and your passion. I’m proud to have you as a fellow citizen. Same here. Well said, Luci. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-iraqi-smoking-gun-and-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/302262/186 "2005-05-06T04:10:09Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > I do understand the system and the bind it puts you into. My question was if Blair will choose to interpret a Labour victory as a vindication of his Iraq policies. One shouldn’t underestimate what a spinmeister like Blair can get away with, but nonetheless I doubt Blair to get away with such an interpretation. There is a very very high level of awareness in the UK press of the dilemma faced by those who, like tagos, can’t stand Blair but can’t see any alternative. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-iraqi-smoking-gun-and-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/302262/187 "2005-05-06T04:31:26Z")
[**Happy Birthday Mission Accomplished**](http://dailywarnews.blogspot.com/2005_05_01_dailywarnews_archive.html#111519989138698602) Enjoy. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-iraqi-smoking-gun-and-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/302262/188 "2005-05-06T04:37:12Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Having renounced my Republicanism I still say you’re all a bunch of idiots for harping on this tired old crap. Me, I’m focussed on the more important international issues, and I come down squarely in favor of the Brazillians. As do I. But hardly for the same reasons: [Brazil to Bush: Fuck Off.](http://www.guardian.co.uk/brazil/story/0,12462,1475966,00.html) > [@](#): > > Brazil yesterday became the first country to take a public stand against the Bush administration’s massive Aids programme which is seen by many as seeking increasingly to press its anti-abortion, pro-abstinence sexual agenda on poorer countries. > > Campaigners applauded Brazil’s rejection of $40m for its Aids programmes because it refuses to agree to a declaration condemning prostitution. > > The government and many Aids organisations believe such a declaration would be a serious barrier to helping sex workers protect themselves and their clients from infection. > > Article continues > The demand from the US administration, heavily influenced by the religious right, follows what is known as the “global gag” - a ban on US government funds to any foreign-based organisation which has links to abortion. This has resulted in the removal of millions of dollars of funding from family planning clinics worldwide. > > Yesterday Pedro Chequer, the director of Brazil’s HIV/Aids programme, said the government had managed to resist US pressure during negotiations on the Aids funding to focus on promoting abstinence and fidelity rather than condoms - another ideological battle being waged by the religious right. But the US negotiators insisted that the clause on prostitution had to stay. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-iraqi-smoking-gun-and-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/302262/189 "2005-05-06T04:46:47Z")
For any insomniacs out there still looking for the truth: [**"Bush is Lying" by Kevin McMillan**](http://www.juancole.com/2005/04/guest-comment-bush-is-lying-by-kevin.html) [**Claims and evaluations of Iraq’s proscribed weapons**](http://middleeastreference.org.uk/iraqweapons.html) [**Chronology of lies and deceprtions**](http://middleeastreference.org.uk/writings.html) ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-iraqi-smoking-gun-and-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/302262/190 "2005-05-06T06:12:20Z")
The problem is that the people most in need of the truth are deluded into believing they already have it, and thus have no motivation to seek it out. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-iraqi-smoking-gun-and-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/302262/191 "2005-05-06T09:39:12Z")
[Here ya go](http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/11574296.htm): > [@](#): > > Posted on Thu, May. 05, 2005 > > **British memo indicates Bush made intelligence fit Iraq policy** > > By Warren P. Strobel and John Walcott > Knight Ridder Newspapers > > WASHINGTON - A highly classified British memo, leaked in the midst of Britain’s just-concluded election campaign, indicates that President Bush decided to overthrow Iraqi President Saddam Hussein by summer 2002 and was determined to ensure that U.S. intelligence data supported his policy. > > The document, which summarizes a July 23, 2002, meeting of British Prime Minister Tony Blair with his top security advisers, reports on a visit to Washington by the head of Britain’s MI-6 intelligence service. > > The visit took place while the Bush administration was still declaring to the American public that no decision had been made to go to war. > > “There was a perceptible shift in attitude. Military action was now seen as inevitable,” the MI-6 chief said at the meeting, according to the memo. “Bush wanted to remove Saddam through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD,” weapons of mass destruction. > > The memo said “the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy.” And they’ve got verification, apparently, that the minutes accurately reflected the state of play in the Bush Administration at the time: > [@](#): > > The newly disclosed memo, which was first reported by the Sunday Times of London, hasn’t been disavowed by the British government. A spokesman for the British Embassy in Washington referred queries to another official, who didn’t return calls for comment on Thursday. > > A former senior U.S. official called it **“an absolutely accurate description of what transpired”** during the senior British intelligence officer’s visit to Washington. He spoke on condition of anonymity. > > A White House official said the administration wouldn’t comment on leaked British documents. > > In July 2002, and well afterward, top Bush administration foreign policy advisers were insisting that “there are no plans to attack Iraq on the president’s desk.” > > But the memo quotes British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw, a close colleague of then-Secretary of State Colin Powell, as saying that “Bush had made up his mind to take military action.” > > Straw is quoted as having his doubts about the Iraqi threat. > > “But the case was thin. Saddam was not threatening his neighbors, and his WMD capability was less than that of Libya, North Korea or Iran,” the memo reported he said. This last part is important, because it says that well before the war, the Brits were aware that Saddam’s WMD capability just wasn’t that big a deal. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-iraqi-smoking-gun-and-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/302262/192 "2005-05-06T11:10:35Z")
Breaking News: Bush Wanted to Invade Iraq as Early as Summer 2002 ALSO … Water Found to be Wet AND … Pope Benedict XVI Admits Catholicism NOT TO MENTION … Bear Feces Found in Wooded Area ---
**Author:** ![MrAlpen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@MrAlpen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrAlpen)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-iraqi-smoking-gun-and-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/302262/193 "2005-05-06T11:26:37Z")
> [@Jack Batty](#): > > Breaking News: > > Bush Wanted to Invade Iraq as Early as Summer 2002 > > ALSO … > > Water Found to be Wet > > : For what it’s worth, I was one (of many?) who honestly DIDN’T think that this water was wet. It really WOULD have changed my opinions about the legitimacy of the war, and the integrity of Bush (and Blair), had I known that they were reading intelligence reports with this fixed intention. I suppose that makes me gullible: foolishly, at the time, I thought that wearing an “I’m not cynical” badge was a decent act in itself. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-iraqi-smoking-gun-and-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/302262/194 "2005-05-06T11:27:11Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Y’know, after all this time Bricker’s pretty stupid (or hopelessly gullible) for expecting rational and courteous debate in an Elucidator “Bush lied” pit thread. And after he tried so hard in [post #2](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6121178&postcount=2) to engage others in a rational and courteous debate. What fuckers we! I do agree that he has shown himself to be stupid and gullible, although I point to different evidence for that claim than do you. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-iraqi-smoking-gun-and-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/302262/195 "2005-05-06T11:50:32Z")
One of the things that annoys me about all of this is that some of you are making the point that if GWB did not know for a fact that Iraq did \*not \* have WMDs, then he didn’t lie. Bullshit. We don’t go to war with every nation that has WMDs. Hell, North Korea was sitting over in the corner waving its hand like Horshak in Mr. Kotter’s class, going “Hey, we’ve got nukes! Over here! Hey, look at us!” There must be dozens of nations, maybe hundreds, that have chemical weapons - they’re fairly cheap and easy to make. The claim was that Iraq was an imminent danger to our nation, and one of the many “supports” of this claim was that Iraq had large stockpiles of WMDs, and were well-advanced on a nuclear program. Does anyone here believe that this was true? Does anyone here believe that the current administration actually believed that the US was in danger of attack from Iraq? Although this was a Blair-ism, rather than a Bush-ism, we were informed that Iraq was capable of launching a (possibly nuclear) attack within 45 minutes of deciding to do so. Does anyone believe that there was actually \*credible \* evidence to support this claim? Bush’s lie wasn’t that Iraq had WMDs - as has been pointed out by many, many people many, many times, pretty much everyone figured they must have a few. The lie was that there was a \*crisis \* - that the situation had to be dealt with _right now_, that it couldn’t even wait a few more months, or we (or possibly Israel) were risking grave danger of attack. Does anyone here really think that the administration believed this? Remember, these are neo-cons, whose own documents state that lying to the people in order to get their support is perfectly acceptable. And remember the timing of the so-called Iraqi crisis - prompted by absolutely no action on the part of Iraq. It was September 2002, just two months before the congressional election. By screaming “Iraq” and “9/11” in the same breath enough times, the Republicans were able to convey the idea that anyone who spoke out against making war on Iraq was at the best soft on terrorism and at worst a traitor. This really happened, remember? People who thought going to war with Iraq was unjustified and wrong were called traitors. I have friends who still have the bumper sticker “Boycott France” on their car (I just discovered this - haven’t decided if I still respect them enough to maintain the friendship). **Scylla** , it’s not beating a dead horse while so many people still believe the bullshit. And not all of them are idiots - look at **Bricker**. Whatever else he has demonstrated himself to be, he’s not stupid. This stuff is important. It’s important that people know just how badly the American public was manipulated. Don’t get me wrong. The people share the blame here. They wanted easy answers to highly complex issues, and they elected the guy who promised to give them. They shut their eyes and ears to anything that threatened to disagree with their comfortable world view. We get the government we deserve. But we should know the truth. ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-iraqi-smoking-gun-and-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/302262/196 "2005-05-06T11:50:53Z")
> [@MrAlpen](#): > > For what it’s worth, I was one (of many?) who honestly DIDN’T think that this water was wet. It really WOULD have changed my opinions about the legitimacy of the war, and the integrity of Bush (and Blair), had I known that they were reading intelligence reports with this fixed intention. I suppose that makes me gullible: foolishly, at the time, I thought that wearing an “I’m not cynical” badge was a decent act in itself. Giving people who have not shown themselves to be evil the benefit of the doubt is usually decent. Continuing to give them the benefit after you have been shown to have been wrong about them because it’s easier than admitting that you’ve been backing a bastard is not. ---
**Author:** ![MrAlpen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@MrAlpen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrAlpen)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-iraqi-smoking-gun-and-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/302262/197 "2005-05-06T12:15:50Z")
I agree - but no one enjoys being wrong, and I’m not surprised how hard it is to admit: one of humanity’s more explicable peculiarities. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-iraqi-smoking-gun-and-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/302262/198 "2005-05-06T12:47:25Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Having renounced my Republicanism I still say you’re all a bunch of idiots for harping on this tired old crap. When those thousands that died come back to life, I’ll stop “harping” on the “crap”. **Bricker** , thanks for your ‘timeline’ response, I haven’t had time to read it properly and respond. Maybe this weekend. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-iraqi-smoking-gun-and-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/302262/199 "2005-05-06T13:53:58Z")
> [@David Limbaugh](#): > > President Bush couldn’t possibly have lied about WMD unless he miraculously knew something that neither the CIA nor all the other world’s intelligence agencies knew: that Saddam didn’t have WMD. Now how could he have known that? Did he hire his own private investigators to dispatch some Farsi-speaking, cowboy hat-wearing paragon of erudition to comb its entire landmass to confirm there were no WMD? So where’s the house cleaning 'ol innocent boy should be doing after all those agencies fucked up? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-iraqi-smoking-gun-and-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/302262/200 "2005-05-06T14:03:50Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Blah blah. You continue. > > You never called me a traitor. Never claimed that. > > I never called you a coward. Never claimed that. > > But you have been called a coward. > > And I have been called a traitor. > > Yet somehow yours is relevent and mine isn’t? Care to explain that? > > Unless, of course, you’re going to move some goalposts (when is the hernia going to finally hit?) and claim that only happenings on the SDMB matter. > > Or you could just admit that you just threw out that comment because you were hoping to toss out a throwaway for some sympathy. Because if there’s anyone who needs sympathy it sure is you, huh? What?!? Someone called you a traitor outside the SDMB, and someone calls me a coward in this very thread, and we are to discuss the two events here in this thread, granting them equal relevance? You’re crazy. Batshit, blubbering crazy. Go away now and peddle crazy somewhere else – we’re full up here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-iraqi-smoking-gun-and-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/302262.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-iraqi-smoking-gun-and-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/302262.md?page=11)