# Another Iraqi Smoking Gun, and the Dog That Didn't Bark **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 3, 2005, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-iraqi-smoking-gun-and-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/302262 "2005-05-03T19:38:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2005, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-iraqi-smoking-gun-and-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/302262/121 "2005-05-05T17:33:06Z")
Try handwaving away the “Don’t know” numbers and you’re there. But you’re right, he will. **Uncommon** you’re still looking for something to get me with, aren’t you? Grow the fuck up, kid. ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2005, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-iraqi-smoking-gun-and-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/302262/122 "2005-05-05T17:38:24Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > **Uncommon** Grow the fuck up, kid. Am I the only person to see the irony in that statement? ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2005, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-iraqi-smoking-gun-and-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/302262/123 "2005-05-05T17:44:24Z")
> [@Uncommon Sense](#): > > So, was Iraq deliberately lying, or were they trying their best to convey the truth to the US and we chose to ignore them? > You stated that much of the comments in this thread boil down to heresay and not direct evidence of much. > The burden of truth lies on the accusers, you said. Did we supply ample burden of truth on Iraq before we invaded? The difference here is not the burden of proof. It is the standard. Evidence from defectors who claim to have knowledge of WMD was accepted as gospel, even after it was shown to be inaccurate by inspections. Forged documents, about which flags had already been raised, was not re-examined. Unverified, or even substantiated, reports about the actions of Mohammad Atta and Iraqi Intelligence in Prague was given full creedence. Now that the proposition has shifted from Saddam being deceitful to Bush being deceitful the standard has gone up substantially. Official state records of cabinet-level meetings are being considered “totem pole hearsay”. One may argue that the character of the two individuals, Hussein vs. Bush, should be enough to justify these varying standards. After all, Hussein is a proven liar and the benefit of the doubt is hard to grant in his case. I would agree with this arguement, however I would say there is another dimension here as well. The costs of the consequences of the lie. If we believe Bush then a war starts. These severe consequences mean the standard of evidence should be strict. Far more strict than it was. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2005, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-iraqi-smoking-gun-and-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/302262/124 "2005-05-05T17:46:16Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The problem is that we cannot choose from a long list of possibles. Every four years, there are essentially two choices for the person who will fill that position. It is not a case of claiming that Mr. Bush is the Bestest President Ever, but that, of the choices offered, he was the better choice. On balance, I believe that true both for 2000 and 2004, despite the management failure described in this thread. Personally I think coldly referring to it as a “management failure” _seriously_ demeans all the consequences the war in Iraq has caused. I have no love for Bush, and I have no love for Kerry either, but what Bush has done to this country is criminal. I voted for Kerry because I thought he would screw the country up _less_ then Bush. But you’re right, the system from top to bottom is totally broken. Apathetic Americans who don’t question the spin and half truths, politicians employing whatever scummy tactics necessary to gain office, and infotainment media that doesn’t care about facts or accountability, or even being objective. We are living the fall of the Roman empire. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2005, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-iraqi-smoking-gun-and-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/302262/125 "2005-05-05T17:48:56Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Sure, I let my temper run away with me a bit on that post, above. I’d say it happened at about the “fellate the leader” post. > > This is in the Pit, so I didn’t self-censor as much as I otherwise might. > > But I’m not yet at the mea culpa stage. Why must I be a model of restraint, and suffer the insults of others without ever replying in kind? Why have a crowd of people told me how terrible my post was, and not one word of reproach offered to the poster who suggested I was metaphorically swallowing the Presidential Staff? I am said poster. And basically everything you’ve written in this thread vindicates what I said. In fact, your semi-direct reply to my post was a virtual lesson in political cock-sucking. [To wit](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6126101&postcount=69) > [@](#): > > Nope. I’m content with the current situation, in which the insular left-wing community is convinced of Bush’s evil, but the general public - the voters - not so much. > > Before the election, you all prattled on about this, and, lo! Bush was re-elected by millions of votes. > > The next election is the 2006 mid-terms, and the GOP will not lose a single net seat in the House or the Senate. > > So why do I have to worry about convincing anyone else? I’m perfectly happy with the status quo. My party controls the House, the Senate, and the White House, and that’s not changing. So why should I worry about convincing anyone? Don’t like it? Simple really. Take Dubya’s virtual penis out of your piehole. In the meantime I feel nothing but disgust for you and the rest of your mindless fellow fellators. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2005, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-iraqi-smoking-gun-and-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/302262/126 "2005-05-05T17:50:32Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > In effect, yes. None of your goalpost-shifting, now, you know that doesn’t work here. “In effect?” Where, precisely, did I say something that gave this “effect?” > [@](#): > > Then, as the proponent of that claim, it’s up to you to support it, innit? Better get started, then. Nice try. But I’m not the proponent of the claim. I’m reacting to the proponent of the claim. My mere participation in a debate does not magically shift the burden of proof to me. > [@](#): > > Would that there were evidence to support that. Got any, as the proponent of that claim? We Dopers have, as you well know, discussed that in detail in GD. Did any of that sink in, or are you still in foolish denial? Hard though it may be to believe, I do not read every thread in GD. I’ll accept responsibility for every thread in which I have participated – and if you will direct my attention to such a thread containing this compelling evidence, please do so. Also, if you wish me to review a thread that you believe supports your cause, I’ll do that. But you can’t merely refer to some thread in GD, as though it was on the syllabus and I’m at fault for not having covered it by quiz time. > [@](#): > > Would that really change your attitude? Would that affect your own moral judgment on the matter, if you are in fact capable of making one? [Be careful what you wish for](http://www.usatoday.com/news/polls/tables/live/2005-04-03-poll.htm): > So much for the _casus belli_. Those numbers, to a bitter-end loyalist like yourself, constitute a sweeping mandate. 50-48-2, with a margin of error of 5 percent? And even that question asks if “the Bush administration” deliberately misled the public. I might answer “yes” to that question, myself. Did the President lie? No. Did someone in the executive branch deliberately skew intel info? Yes, I think so. So I’d probably answer ‘yes.’ But the practice here has been to assert that Mr. Bush, personally, based on his animus towards Saddam Hussein, lied. I don’t believe that. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2005, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-iraqi-smoking-gun-and-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/302262/127 "2005-05-05T17:59:58Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > 50-48-2, with a margin of error of 5 percent? And even that question asks if “the Bush administration” deliberately misled the public. I might answer “yes” to that question, myself. Did the President lie? No. Did someone in the executive branch deliberately skew intel info? Yes, I think so. So I’d probably answer ‘yes.’ > > But the practice here has been to assert that Mr. Bush, personally, based on his animus towards Saddam Hussein, lied. I don’t believe that. Wow! That’s even better than I had expected. Not only do we get handwaving about the numbers, but we get a parsing of Bush versus his administration. The standard has become “Did _Bush himself_ lie about Hussein out of personal animus?” Holy shit. I think excusing Bush for the actions of his administration (er even distinguishing between them vis a vis the concerted effort put forward to lead to the war) comes pretty much as close to a figurate fellating as can be. “His administration may have lied, but he didn’t!! Leave him alone so he can nut in my eye!” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2005, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-iraqi-smoking-gun-and-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/302262/128 "2005-05-05T18:11:56Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > Wow! That’s even better than I had expected. Not only do we get handwaving about the numbers, but we get a parsing of Bush versus his administration. The standard has become “Did _Bush himself_ lie about Hussein out of personal animus?” Holy shit. I think excusing Bush for the actions of his administration (er even distinguishing between them vis a vis the concerted effort put forward to lead to the war) comes pretty much as close to a figurate fellating as can be. “His administration may have lied, but he didn’t!! Leave him alone so he can nut in my eye!” Well, then we can put this debate to a close. I acknowledge that the Bush administration was deceptive about the presence of WMD in Iraq. I deny that Mr. Bush, himself, was deceptive. Sounds like you agree. End of story, fellating or otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2005, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-iraqi-smoking-gun-and-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/302262/129 "2005-05-05T18:18:24Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Well, then we can put this debate to a close. > > I acknowledge that the Bush administration was deceptive about the presence of WMD in Iraq. > > I deny that Mr. Bush, himself, was deceptive. The question to me is why you do not hold Bush personally responsible for the failures of his administration? ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2005, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-iraqi-smoking-gun-and-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/302262/130 "2005-05-05T18:19:39Z")
I woke up at 5 this morning, cut me some slack on the grammar. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2005, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-iraqi-smoking-gun-and-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/302262/131 "2005-05-05T18:21:42Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > I woke up at 5 this morning, cut me some slack on the grammar. Heh. I wake up at 5 every morning, and I are able writing just finely. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2005, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-iraqi-smoking-gun-and-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/302262/132 "2005-05-05T18:21:46Z")
Hmm, the suggestion again that President Bush did not personally engage the in orchestrated campaign of deceit and lies to promote the war. Yes, well one response to that might be; Just Fuck Off **Bricker** , yes just Fuck Right Off, go on do so. Secondly, this notion, that good or evil stands or falls by the will of the population expressed at elections. It is a remarkably flexible moral standard, but it further ignores both the evidence and the probability that a significant slice of the voting public, certainly enough to sway an election, _are evil_ and approve of that in a leader. I think we can agree that Wars of agression commenced deceitfully and bringing torture routinely into the body politic are fairly easily bought within “evil”. And many Americans positively approve of both these things. Is that so difficult to face? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2005, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-iraqi-smoking-gun-and-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/302262/133 "2005-05-05T18:24:43Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > “In effect?” Where, precisely, did I say something that gave this “effect?” :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > Nice try. But I’m not the proponent of the claim. I’m reacting to the proponent of the claim. **december** used to try that shit too. Didn’t work for him, either, though. > [@](#): > > Also, if you wish me to review a thread that you believe supports your cause, I’ll do that. But you can’t merely refer to some thread in GD, as though it was on the syllabus and I’m at fault for not having covered it by quiz time. So you’d rather not discuss the topic now? No wonder. > [@](#): > > 50-48-2, with a margin of error of 5 percent? And even that question asks if “the Bush administration” deliberately misled the public. **Hentor** , you were right. Is that breeze cooling you off any? ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2005, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-iraqi-smoking-gun-and-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/302262/134 "2005-05-05T18:24:50Z")
PS: **Hentor TB** It’s likely a pre-emptive “avoid impeachment debate” move. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2005, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-iraqi-smoking-gun-and-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/302262/135 "2005-05-05T18:34:13Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Well, then we can put this debate to a close. > > I acknowledge that the Bush administration was deceptive about the presence of WMD in Iraq. > > I deny that Mr. Bush, himself, was deceptive. > > Sounds like you agree. End of story, fellating or otherwise. Why do you say that? I would only agree that if one excludes the lies of the administration apart from Bush, there is quite a bit less left to work with. He still lied about the 16 words, about the non-existant report, about “We’ve found the WMD,” and a few other things, but he says so little that, as you well know. And, having lowered the bar to whether he was deceptive, I am sure that you would agree that Bush was deceptive on many, many more occasions, including his manner of deceptively linking Hussein and al Queda. In conjunction with **World Eater’s** question, I would ask what information you think Bush conveys that doesn’t come from his administration? At which points do you think members of his administration were saying things Bush did not agree with? Why were they allowed to do so, or why didn’t Bush make any corrective statements regarding the deception carried out by his administration against his will? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2005, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-iraqi-smoking-gun-and-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/302262/136 "2005-05-05T18:44:45Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > I think we can agree that Wars of agression commenced deceitfully and bringing torture routinely into the body politic are fairly easily bought within “evil”. And many Americans positively approve of both these things. Is that so difficult to face? It’s not true. You get to define “evil.” As long as you’re defining it, without regard for anyone else, then sure, “evil” is whatever you say it is. I keep bringing up the will of the majority because you refuse to accept that your defintion is not universally held. You insisit that you get to define it, not me. Well, I say _I_ get to define it, not you. So how do we decide? ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2005, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-iraqi-smoking-gun-and-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/302262/137 "2005-05-05T18:53:06Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I deny that Mr. Bush, himself, was deceptive. I agree with this simple statement. I even take it a step further by saying that most of his administration thought they were acting on the truth - the idea that the president lied to the American people hinges on this one fact: that George W. Bush knew for certain that the intelligence agencies of America, Britain, France, Germany, Israel and Australia, as well as the United Nations and countless independent experts were all wrong. Or to quote David Limbaugh; \*"Most other major nations, including France, Germany, and Russia, also believed Saddam had WMD. And, the 9-11 Commission and the Senate Intelligence Committee, based on hundreds of interviews, concluded, in effect, that Bush did not lie about the intelligence. President Bush couldn’t possibly have lied about WMD unless he miraculously knew something that neither the CIA nor all the other world’s intelligence agencies knew: that Saddam didn’t have WMD. Now how could he have known that? Did he hire his own private investigators to dispatch some Farsi-speaking, cowboy hat-wearing paragon of erudition to comb its entire landmass to confirm there were no WMD? "\* ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2005, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-iraqi-smoking-gun-and-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/302262/138 "2005-05-05T18:55:04Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Well, I say _I_ get to define [evil], not you. > > So how do we decide? Go right ahead and give us your definition, then. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2005, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-iraqi-smoking-gun-and-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/302262/139 "2005-05-05T18:59:41Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No, this is the Show-Me-What-Post-You’re-Referring-To Defense. > > When did I call anyone a traitor? All you have to do is supply the post. It’s a simple request. Go Chewie! Here you go, supply the post where I called you a coward. See how this works? -JOe ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2005, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-iraqi-smoking-gun-and-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/302262/140 "2005-05-05T19:02:55Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It’s not true. > > You get to define “evil.” As long as you’re defining it, without regard for anyone else, then sure, “evil” is whatever you say it is. > > I keep bringing up the will of the majority because you refuse to accept that your defintion is not universally held. You insisit that you get to define it, not me. > > Well, I say _I_ get to define it, not you. > > So how do we decide? Blah blah blah. By your definition the actual “will of the majority” can be summarized as “I don’t give a fuck, I’m not going to bother voting”. So, I guess the true vindication goes to apathy. Want to try redefining it again? You’re so good at moving goalposts. -Joe [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-iraqi-smoking-gun-and-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/302262.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-iraqi-smoking-gun-and-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/302262.md?page=8)