# Another Iraqi Smoking Gun, and the Dog That Didn't Bark **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 3, 2005, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-iraqi-smoking-gun-and-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/302262 "2005-05-03T19:38:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2005, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-iraqi-smoking-gun-and-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/302262/141 "2005-05-05T19:04:07Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Go Chewie! > > Here you go, supply the post where I called you a coward. > > See how this works? I never said YOU called me a coward. I said I was called a coward. It was in [this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6124744&postcount=57), which refers to the “Sir Robin” minstrel song in “Monty Python and the Holy Grail,” in which Sir Robin’s retreats are mocked as cowardice. Now - when did I call you, or anyone, a traitor? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2005, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-iraqi-smoking-gun-and-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/302262/142 "2005-05-05T19:06:08Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Go right ahead and give us your definition, then. The conscious and deliberate desire to do wrong, in matters of grave importance. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2005, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-iraqi-smoking-gun-and-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/302262/143 "2005-05-05T19:19:44Z")
Define “wrong” and “grave importance” for us, then - before you try to squirm out of saying that’s what Bush did, that is. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2005, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-iraqi-smoking-gun-and-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/302262/144 "2005-05-05T19:24:03Z")
Wrong means an injurious, unfair, or unjust act, contrary to established principles, practices, justice, goodness, equity, or law. “Grave importance” refers to matters of significantly serious moral, ethical, or legal weight. ---
**Author:** ![vibrotronica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a9a28c/32.png) [@vibrotronica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vibrotronica)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2005, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-iraqi-smoking-gun-and-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/302262/145 "2005-05-05T19:24:30Z")
By that definition, Hitler wasn’t evil. He genuinely thought he was doing the right thing for Germany. He did not have a conscious and deliberate desire to do wrong. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2005, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-iraqi-smoking-gun-and-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/302262/146 "2005-05-05T19:27:30Z")
Connect the dots for us now, O Wise One. Is a President misleading his people into a war na “injurious, unfair or unjust act”? Is a war a “matter of significantly serious moral, ethical, or legal weight”? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2005, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-iraqi-smoking-gun-and-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/302262/147 "2005-05-05T19:27:42Z")
> [@vibrotronica](#): > > By that definition, Hitler wasn’t evil. He genuinely thought he was doing the right thing for Germany. He did not have a conscious and deliberate desire to do wrong. You think Hitler really thought the Jews were the source of all Germany’s ills? I don’t. I think he knew he was picking a scapegoat. That was a deliberate act. But if you’re right… then I’d say he was simply mentally unbalanced, not evil. But I don’t think you’re right. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2005, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-iraqi-smoking-gun-and-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/302262/148 "2005-05-05T19:31:12Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Connect the dots for us now, O Wise One. Is a President misleading his people into a war na “injurious, unfair or unjust act”? Deliberately misleading? Yes. “Misled” in the sense that he believed infomration that turned out to be untrue? No. > [@](#): > > Is a war a “matter of significantly serious moral, ethical, or legal weight”? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Kearse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f04885/32.png) [@Kearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearse)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2005, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-iraqi-smoking-gun-and-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/302262/149 "2005-05-05T19:33:25Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > **luc** : \*Sure he can. He just did. \* > > Yeah, at first. But now at least he’s given a serious response about the substance of the issue. I don’t mind if Bush supporters deny that Bush misled the public about the war—I think they’re wrong, but they’re entitled to their opinion, as long as they’re willing to defend it. > > What I do mind is if they try to sweep the whole thing away as a non-issue inspired by mere irrational Bush-hatred. No way dude—lying about war, or starting a war illegally, is a very serious issue, and if such an allegation is at all credible, it **MUST** be taken seriously. I am just as tired as all you guys are. The ONE reason it is so easy to completely and irrevocably disregard these types of things is simply that. There are so many freaking charges out there that ARE indeed inspired by “mere irrational Bush-hatred” make it a simple thing to totally disregard anything and everything out of the peanut gallery. I’m no Bush fan but I’ll be damn if even I am going “would you just shut the fuck up about Iraq already” I am one of those people that think ‘we already made the mistake so lets try and do the best we can to make it better’ Revisionist history is nice and all but I don’t see any time machine available to go back in time and elect (insert non GWB candidate here). Do you? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2005, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-iraqi-smoking-gun-and-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/302262/150 "2005-05-05T19:40:28Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > “Misled” in the sense that he believed infomration that turned out to be untrue? No. Yet, given that he could have found out if it were true, and could have prevented it being filtered to tell him what he wanted to hear, how is that not an injurious or unfair or unjust act? Of course it is. You do know better > [@](#): > > Yes. Therefore, following your own definitions, the conclusion would be what? That the staff ate his homework? ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2005, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-iraqi-smoking-gun-and-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/302262/151 "2005-05-05T19:45:27Z")
> [@Kearse](#): > > Revisionist history is nice and all but I don’t see any time machine available to go back in time and elect (insert non GWB candidate here). Do you? No, but what we need to do is learn how to learn from our mistakes. We keep making the same mistakes over again without learning from them. By slashing to death what went wrong with the war while it’s still fresh, we can learn (hopefully) how to avoid this in the future. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2005, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-iraqi-smoking-gun-and-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/302262/152 "2005-05-05T19:54:04Z")
We did try to tell you before the last election. Why weren’t you listening? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2005, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-iraqi-smoking-gun-and-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/302262/153 "2005-05-05T20:25:17Z")
Of course! The dog! That explains everything! See, GeeDubya was about to make his State of the Union speech, and the intel guys sent him an urgent memo saying, like, “Don’t talk about the yellow cake! It ain’t so! And that guy, Chalabi, gonna sit next to your old lady? A lying sack, better have somebody bag him and make up an excuse, whatever you gotta do. Miniature golf later? George T.” And they put it right on his desk for him to see, but the dog came in, and, mistaking the memo for ground up cow rectums and offal…ate it! So poor ol’ GeeDubya, in sublime innocence, went right ahead and made the speech. Heck, how was he supposed to know, wasn’t his fault! And that IAEA report that he cited as proof positive, the one that never existed? Well, GeeDubya _thought_ it existed, but when nobody could find it, he naturally assumed that the dog had given it the Alpo Treatment! Sure! That’s it! All we gotta do now is interrogate the dog (Paging Pvt. Englund! Pvt. Englund, please report to the White House…) and we can get to the bottom of all this and completely exonerate the poor, misjudged…he is? The dog is dead? Must have been something he ate. ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2005, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-iraqi-smoking-gun-and-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/302262/154 "2005-05-05T20:33:03Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > We did try to tell you before the last election. Why weren’t you listening? I’m referring to the mistakes made by all the data collectors and the data interpreters. And by the Pres and his people. I’m not ready to point the blame directly on the head of the POTUS. I will cling to the belief that the intentions were correct given the data that we had at the time regarding the alleged dangers of/in Iraq. What came to light during the war doesn’t justify my opponents anti-war (pre-war) stance. I consider it a lucky guess. We all had the same information pre-war. You chose to downplay the significance of the WMDs and were correct in hindsight. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2005, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-iraqi-smoking-gun-and-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/302262/155 "2005-05-05T20:35:05Z")
You’re really, _really_ good at Twister, right? ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2005, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-iraqi-smoking-gun-and-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/302262/156 "2005-05-05T20:36:01Z")
> [@Kearse](#): > > I am one of those people that think ‘we already made the mistake so lets try and do the best we can to make it better’ Those who do not learn from the past are condemned to repeat it. ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2005, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-iraqi-smoking-gun-and-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/302262/157 "2005-05-05T20:37:22Z")
I swear to god I didn’t preview before I posted. **elucidator’s** well timed post (that he snuck in before my response to **Elvis** ), can only be explained by his acute omnipotence. I am in your service. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2005, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-iraqi-smoking-gun-and-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/302262/158 "2005-05-05T20:45:33Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Those who do not learn from the past are condemned to repeat it. Alas, no. They are condemned to make the rest of us repeat it. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2005, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-iraqi-smoking-gun-and-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/302262/159 "2005-05-05T20:51:31Z")
> [@Uncommon Sense](#): > > I will cling to the belief that the intentions were correct given the data that we had at the time regarding the alleged dangers of/in Iraq. What came to light during the war doesn’t justify my opponents anti-war (pre-war) stance. I consider it a lucky guess. We all had the same information pre-war. Like I said to you when you called yourself **whuckfistle** , fuck you. I did my homework. There was nothing at all about my pre-war stance about WMD evidence that was guesswork. Fuck you, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2005, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-iraqi-smoking-gun-and-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/302262/160 "2005-05-05T20:58:38Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It’s not true. > > You get to define “evil.” As long as you’re defining it, without regard for anyone else, then sure, “evil” is whatever you say it is. > > I keep bringing up the will of the majority because you refuse to accept that your defintion is not universally held. You insisit that you get to define it, not me. > > Well, I say _I_ get to define it, not you. > > So how do we decide? Torture: Evil or no? That’s the man you voted for. Implemented torture. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-iraqi-smoking-gun-and-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/302262.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-iraqi-smoking-gun-and-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/302262.md?page=9)