# Another Israeli mole uncovered - Why does Israel feel it can spy on us with impunity? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 28, 2004, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885 "2004-08-28T01:45:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/1 "2004-08-28T01:45:25Z")
Re the linked story -Using and encouraging a mole inside the deepest levels of the Pentagon is pretty serious stuff, isn’t there _some_ substantive price to be paid for doing this? The last spy for Israel (that was caught), [Jonathan Pollard](http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/pollard.html), has the highest levels of the Israeli government(s) boldly petitioning for commutation of his sentence and his release, and I didn’t really hear anything about serious consequences for Israel in that situation, diplomatic or otherwise. Why does Israel feel it can do this, and get away with it? [FBI Probes Pentagon Spy Case](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/08/27/eveningnews/main639143.shtml) ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/2 "2004-08-28T01:56:31Z")
What _should_ happen is that all defense aid should be suspsended, pronto. What _will_ happen is probably something lame, like diplomatic notes being exchanged or something. I too would like to know why they away with it. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/3 "2004-08-28T01:57:28Z")
> [@astro](#): > > Why does Israel feel it can do this, and get away with it? Well, we did set up the perfect nest for their agent in the pentagon’s Office of Special Plans, didn’t we? It would’ve been impolite for them to have refused the invitation. disclaimer: CBS hasn’t told us that the agent was at the OSP yet, but they have named Feith and Woflowitz as being involved in the cased. That makes connecting the dots pretty simple. Dan Rather also implied on the news tonight that he knew who the spy was. I wonder who leaked this? Surely it wasn’t supposed to come out until _after_ the election? ---
**Author:** ![laigle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ce7236/32.png) [@laigle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/laigle)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/4 "2004-08-28T01:58:15Z")
Man, I was just about to post this. But I couldn’t think of anything to say besides “What in the sweet fucking name of fucking holy fuck?!!?!?!” Can we fire someone now, or do we have to wait for the Dominican Republic to infiltrate us and lead us into a war with Haiti? Is there anyone in the Middle East who doesn’t have more say in our regional policy than we do? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/5 "2004-08-28T02:01:28Z")
Firing isn’t enough. Someone should be going to prison for espionage, and the idiots who hired him without a background check should be fired. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/6 "2004-08-28T02:11:04Z")
> [@](#): > > Why does Israel feel it can do this, and get away with it? Why? Because they own us. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/7 "2004-08-28T02:27:15Z")
> [@Reeder](#): > > Why? > > Because they own us. Israel owns us? Cite? **Brutus** Last time I checked, every nation spies on pretty much every other nation, should we end diplomatic relations with all nations on earth? ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/8 "2004-08-28T02:31:44Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > What _should_ happen is that all defense aid should be suspsended, pronto. What _will_ happen is probably something lame, like diplomatic notes being exchanged or something. I too would like to know why they away with it. Hell, yeah! What the fuck have foreign aid coming out of our taxes if we don’t use it as leverage when it suits our interests? James Baker did it once and got quick compliance. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/9 "2004-08-28T02:39:46Z")
> [@SimonX](#): > > Hell, yeah! > What the fuck have foreign aid coming out of our taxes if we don’t use it as leverage when it suits our interests? > James Baker did it once and got quick compliance. It seems, at least to me, that it’s a complicated situation. Our international interests would not be advanced were Israel to be destroyed tomorrow, and cutting off aid to them would only help assure that possibility. Surely there is a diplomatic solution that doesn’t shoot us in the foot? ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/10 "2004-08-28T03:20:46Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > …they have named Feith and Woflowitz as being involved in the case. Ain’t dat a bitch? [The OSP on it’s way to its rightful fame](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=199309) I hope. > [@laigle](#): > > Can we fire someone now, or do we have to wait for the Dominican Republic to infiltrate us and lead us into a war with Haiti? Is there anyone in the Middle East who doesn’t have more say in our regional policy than we do? An instant classic of a post > [@SteveG1](#): > > Firing isn’t enough. Someone should be going to prison for espionage, and the idiots who hired him without a background check should be fired. This is par for the course. Team Bush selected someone who had been caught passing classified national security information to agents of a foreign country (Israel coincidentally enough) to be one of his foreign policy advisors - to help him “find Kosovo on a map”- one of the Vulcans. This same fellow recently tried to broker a bid for a private company using his contacts and influence in the Pentagon. It would’ve been illegal had he only showed to two or three more days of work on the Defense Policy Advisory Board. Even more interesting is that the contract he was trying to broker was **opposed by the FBI and the Pentagon** because **the company that he was working for was** owned by a man who runs companies that are **known fronts for the Chinese military and intelligence services**. What happened over this? He was asked to step down from his position as chairman of the President’s Defense Policy Advisory Board, becoming just another lowly member of the President’s Defense Policy Advisory Board. He has since been forced to resign as the result of further conflict of interest scandals. He runs an investment firm that specializes in security related businesses. He is reported to do business with international arms dealer Adnan Khashoggi. This is the sort of fellow that GWB _chose_ to help him devise America’s foreign policy. Character counts, so what kind of shit do you expect to happen? Anyway, **SteveG1** these things are all matter of very, very public record and the Bush Team took to him anyway, so I don’t think that background checks would make much of a difference. > [@Reeder](#): > > Because they own us. Hogwash and fiddlesticks. At best they have figured out to play our system better than the avrage American has. Israel’s not the only one. There’re any number of lobbying groups that take advantage of our [rational ignorance](http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=%22rational+ignorance%22&btnG=Search). Btw, take a look at what the Moonies of of all freakin people are getting away with in the halls of our federal government. The line between real and surreal thins a little everyday. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > …every nation spies on pretty much every other nation, should we end diplomatic relations with all nations on earth? Why end realtions? Why not just let repercussions be felt by witholding aid packages for serial offenders? I mean why put up with it? > [@FinnAgain](#): > > …were Israel to be destroyed tomorrow, and cutting off aid to them would only help assure that possibility. That possibility is hardly assured. Even a full fuckton of help with the assurance wouldn’t bring Israel close to destruction tomorrow. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Surely there is a diplomatic solution that doesn’t shoot us in the foot? Yeah, we put out foot down. Then Israel can lump it or leave it. Sometimes, that _is_ diplomacy shoud go. If Israel is so goldurned dependent on US aid, then they should calculate a bit differently how they conduct their business. That’s what foreign aid is good for. It’s so much more handy than violence. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/11 "2004-08-28T03:22:46Z")
Anyway, SteveG1 these things are all matter of very, very public record and the Bush Team _ **keeps** _ him anyway, so I don’t think that background checks would make much of a difference. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/12 "2004-08-28T03:24:30Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Israel owns us? > Cite? What is that, some kind of joke? What cite do you reasonably expect from asking for one on an opinion? > [@](#): > > Last time I checked, every nation spies on pretty much every other nation, should we end diplomatic relations with all nations on earth? Somewhere I bet there is a list of how many spies we have caught from allied nations. What makes me think that it is a rather short list, and that one particular nation is probably far in the lead? ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/13 "2004-08-28T03:27:20Z")
Some one sure knows a name from link in OP: The suspected spy has not returned repeated phone calls from CBS News. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/14 "2004-08-28T03:31:27Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > What is that, some kind of joke? What cite do you reasonably expect from asking for one on an opinion? “Israel owns us” is not an opinion. It is a statement that either has a factual basis, or does not. It’s an accusation with very serious consequences and it requires proof. You can’t make a charge like that and then retreat behind the position that it’s only an opinion. Same as if someone said “Group X controls the media.” Give proof or retract. > [@Ravenman](#): > > Somewhere I bet there is a list of how many spies we have caught from allied nations. What makes me think that it is a rather short list, and that one particular nation is probably far in the lead? I don’t know what makes you think that, but you may even be right. Even if you are, I’d still advise Israel to try to find out as much as they can about their single greatest ally, and spying is in general the only way to get at the secret bits that the newspapers don’t report. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/15 "2004-08-28T03:35:40Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > … I’d still advise Israel to try to find out as much as they can about their single greatest ally, and spying is in general the only way to get at the secret bits that the newspapers don’t report. So? The US has the responsibility to do what’s best for the US. **Israel’s needs to spy on us are immediately and far superseded by our needs not to be spied on.** ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/16 "2004-08-28T03:42:24Z")
“The FBI is investigating whether an analyst for the Pentagon’s No. 3 official… …an arrest in the case could come as early as next week. There are slightly more than a handful of people in Feith’s office who specifically work on **Iranian** issues. …Senate Intelligence Committee…is generally briefed on espionage cases.” [http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Politics/ap20040827\_2132.html](http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Politics/ap20040827_2132.html) How long til things get connected with this: **[DIA says Iran INC to get US into Invade Iraq](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=257550)** ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/17 "2004-08-28T03:46:49Z")
> [@SimonX](#): > > Ain’t dat a bitch? > > [The OSP on it’s way to its rightful fame](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=199309) I hope. I’d begun to despair. They were such a _good_ target that it seemed unfair to let them slip into the dustbin of history unscathed. 😃 Now ABC/AP is saying that [the mole worked for Feith:](http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Politics/ap20040827_2335.html) > [@](#): > > The officials refused to identify the Pentagon employee who is under investigation, but said the person works in the office of Douglas J. Feith, the undersecretary of defense for policy at the Pentagon. This article: [Israel’s Mole Inside the Pentagon](http://dc.indymedia.org/feature/display/104306/index.php), provides a lovely little organizational chart of the people working under Feith. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/18 "2004-08-28T03:51:38Z")
“The investigation involves a single individual at the Department of Defense at the desk officer level who was not in a position to have significant influence over U.S. policy,” the papers quoted the statement as saying. “Nor could a foreign power be in a position to influence U.S. policy through this individual. To the best of the Department of Defense’s knowledge, the investigation does not target any other DOD individuals.” …assigned to a unit within the defense department tasked with helping to develop Iraq policy." > **[Breaking International News & Views](https://www.reuters.com/)** ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/19 "2004-08-28T03:55:39Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > This article: [Israel’s Mole Inside the Pentagon](http://dc.indymedia.org/feature/display/104306/index.php), provides a lovely little organizational chart of the people working under Feith. Did Luti ever work for the DIA? Is he near retirement? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/20 "2004-08-28T04:29:46Z")
> [@SimonX](#): > > Did Luti ever work for the DIA? Not so far as I can tell. [luti bio](http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:ZJiFvPe_4kEJ:www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml%3Ftitle%3DWilliam_Luti+%22william+luti%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) [another luti bio](http://rightweb.irc-online.org/ind/luti/luti.php) Plus a half an hour of digging and ~30 other sites. > [@](#): > > Is he near retirement? [He’s 50 this year.](http://www.theunionleader.com/articles_show.html?article=26583) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885.md?page=2)