# Another Israeli mole uncovered - Why does Israel feel it can spy on us with impunity? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 28, 2004, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885 "2004-08-28T01:45:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/21 "2004-08-28T04:42:26Z")
Israel is one of the pawns on the Middle East chessboard. We know it. They know it. It’s in their best interest to know what we’re planning on doing in the region, so it’s quite natural that they spy on us. As pointed out above, everybody who can spies on us, friend and foe alike. We’re the biggest power in the world today, and knowing our next move is of strategic value to many other nations. The game is we spy; they spy; we catch their spies; they catch our spies; concerned parties negotiate for the return of spies, or spies are imprisoned or killed, depending on the circumstances. The fact is, if we suddenly crack down hard on someone elses spies, we may be endangering our own, so it’s not so easy to ratchet up the consequences of intercepted espionage without damaging our own interests and risking our own assets. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/22 "2004-08-28T04:57:57Z")
> [@Loopydude](#): > > The fact is, if we suddenly crack down hard on someone elses spies, we may be endangering our own, so it’s not so easy to ratchet up the consequences of intercepted espionage without damaging our own interests and risking our own assets. Fair enough. Everything is bound by some sorts of limits of proportionality. There’s quite a bit of breathing room between $0.00 and the current aid packages to Israel. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/23 "2004-08-28T05:07:22Z")
“American counterintelligence officials say that Israeli espionage cases are difficult to investigate, because they involve an important ally that enjoys broad political influence in Washington. Several officials said that a number of espionage investigations involving Israel had been dropped or suppressed in the past in the face of political pressure.” [Pentagon Official Suspected of Giving U.S. Secrets to Israel](http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/28/politics/28spy.html?ei=1&en=0c0b68aef09d6b39&ex=1094661360&pagewanted=print&position=) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/24 "2004-08-28T05:13:19Z")
Granted that countries spy on each other all the time, but this is ridiculous. Israel has much too much influence over our policies already and should be told to fuck off. ---
**Author:** ![nonpolar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/3da27b/32.png) [@nonpolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nonpolar)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/25 "2004-08-28T05:15:34Z")
Smoke and mirrors people! All this about Israeli spies is just a game to show more and more displeased Americans that top brass in Washington is not completelly influenced by Israel and deals with Israeli “spies” equally as with other spies. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/26 "2004-08-28T05:28:39Z")
I’ll bet this story came about as an unintended consequence of the Chalabi investigation: > [@](#): > > May 25, 2004 > An urgent investigation has been launched in Washington into whether Iran played a role in manipulating the US into the Iraq war by passing on bogus intelligence through Ahmad Chalabi’s Iraqi National Congress, it emerged yesterday. > … > An intelligence source in Washington said the FBI investigation into the affair would begin with Mr Chalabi’s “handlers” in the Pentagon, who include William Luti, the former head of the office of special plans, and his immediate superior, Douglas Feith, the under secretary of defence for policy. Who could ever have imagined **two** spys, working for _different countries_, lurking at the heart of our military policy apparatus? ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/27 "2004-08-28T05:31:17Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > I’ll bet this story came about as an unintended consequence of the Chalabi investigation: Who could ever have imagined **two** spys, working for _different countries_, lurking at the heart of our military policy apparatus? This investigation has been going on for more than a year. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/28 "2004-08-28T05:40:55Z")
> [@SimonX](#): > > This investigation has been going on for more than a year. Cause, effect. Effect, cause. What’s the difference? :smack: The two cases probably intersect in mysterious and wonderful ways. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/29 "2004-08-28T06:07:58Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > It seems, at least to me, that it’s a complicated situation. > Our international interests would not be advanced were Israel to be destroyed tomorrow. All the evidence is to the contrary. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > and cutting off aid to them would only help assure that possibility All the evidence is to the contrary. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/30 "2004-08-28T06:25:14Z")
> [@sevastopol](#): > > All the evidence is to the contrary. Mind providing a cite for all this ‘evidence’? Becuase last time I checked we want a stable and democratic ally in the middle east. So your first quibble is incorrect. And since their economy and millitary are largely funded by us, your second quibble is also incorrect. Please provide cites. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/31 "2004-08-28T06:50:57Z")
One does not want to make wild accusations. But there are _possible_ implications here that I want sorted out _immediatly_. I don’t think anybody could doubt that it was entirely in Israels “interest” that Saddam be taken out. And we already know that there are “connections” between Luti and Chalabi (damn sure more certain connections than between Saddam and Al Queda!) So the possibility exists that Israel had a hand in passing along cooked intelligence to convince the US that Saddam was an immediate threat. By way of Chalabi? Chalabi the dupe, Chalabi the crook, or Chalabi the Ruler in waiting… Clearly, no evidence has yet come to light to make these suspicions any more than suspicions. But they _must_ either be put to rest, with a stake through the heart, or we get one _hell_ of a good explanation why not. Drag everything out into the sunlight, we need to be sure. Very, very sure. If its true than Isreal manipulated US intelligence and US policy in order to foment a war with Iraq, I am going to be one _mad_ mo-fo! I have always had sympathy for Israel, and I admired their restraint in GW 1. But this would really, _really_ tear it! But if it isn’t true, we must be even _more_ clear. The last thing I want to do is juice up the anti-Semitic element in America. Yuck-o-rama. Talk about with waltzing with a porcupine… (I’ve been hopping around to news blogs and rumor mills like a flea on a hot griddle…somewhere I saw the word “uranium” but kept following links and couldn’t back, or the site had changed since and no longer said “uranium”…just one of those internet chimera…I hope…) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/32 "2004-08-28T07:01:23Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Becuase last time I checked we want a stable and democratic ally in the middle east. > So your first quibble is incorrect. > > And since their economy and millitary are largely funded by us, your second quibble is also incorrect. Israel would survive just fine with a reduced amount of US aid. It would still have the most powerful military in the region by a long shot. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/33 "2004-08-28T07:15:12Z")
I can’t imagine anything worse for Israel than this incident. The Pollard affair was a bit different (although the Israelis made it clear that they wanted him released from prison). I thing that now, there should be a fundamental re-assessment of our relationship with Israel, and a good start would be the immediate suspension of all loans, grants and outright gifts to that country. If they want to settle the west bank, THEY can do it with their own money. Not only that, but they can buy their own oil from now on. ;j ---
**Author:** ![nonpolar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/3da27b/32.png) [@nonpolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nonpolar)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/34 "2004-08-28T07:15:53Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Israel would survive just fine with a reduced amount of US aid. It would still have the most powerful military in the region by a long shot. You right ,after tens of years siphoning billions of dollars from US tax payers and getting for free latest military equipment any nation would have ,powerefull army for many years ahead.It is obvious. By the way ,why Israel with some of the smartest people on the face of the earth needs financial help? I understand helping Egypt or other unstable poor countries but why Israel with 80% of Nobel Prise winners? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/35 "2004-08-28T07:16:33Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Israel would survive just fine with a reduced amount of US aid. It would still have the most powerful military in the region by a long shot. I don’t have cites, but I believe that Israel’s military and economy are, to one degree or another, dependant on our largess. Thus, to decrease aid would decrease the vibrancy of their military and/or economy. Although yes, reduced aid would have less of an impact than eliminated aid. However, I still think it’s naive to assume that our allies don’t and won’t spy on us and that damaging strategic alliances over something that is part and parcel of modern statecraft is unnecessary. I would also note that since the British revolution in the intelligence game as of WW II, it is far more useful to have enemy agents that you can turn and/or feed disinformation/strange loops to than to have no spies in your government at all. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/36 "2004-08-28T07:18:18Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > …Last time I checked, every nation spies on pretty much every other nation, should we end diplomatic relations with all nations on earth? Where the hell did I mention ending diplomatic relations? Holy crap, that is infuriating: STOP EXTENDING ARGUMENTS TO SOME ILLOGICAL EXTREME! I said that we should suspend defense aid. I have no problem whatsoever with America being the ‘final guarantor’ of Israeli security; But if they want to fucking spy on us (and oh by the way, help the Chinese build a technically advanced army, thanks Israel!), they shouldn’t see dime one of direct aid. Heck, we can preposition equipment for our troops (should Israel be invaded) over there; No need to give Israel money, not if this is the thanks we get. When has a agent from a ‘friendly’ country been caught spying on us? (Cite.) And how many of those countries recieve billions in direct military aid and incalcuable ‘political’ aid when it comes to ‘running interference’ on the world stage? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/37 "2004-08-28T07:19:52Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > I don’t have cites, but I believe that Israel’s military and economy are, to one degree or another, dependant on our largess. I couldn’t say either, and I guess we can’t know how they’d do by themselves. To some extent it’s moot. Israel won’t get in too much shit for this because both parties will worry that it would cost them the Jewish vote, especially in, I don’t know, _Florida_. > [@](#): > > However, I still think it’s naive to assume that our allies don’t and won’t spy on us and that damaging strategic alliances over something that is part and parcel of modern statecraft is unnecessary. True, but somehow it seems a combination of ungrateful and just plain devious. I think there’s cause for concern here. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/38 "2004-08-28T07:31:06Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > Where the hell did I mention ending diplomatic relations? Holy crap, that is infuriating: STOP EXTENDING ARGUMENTS TO SOME ILLOGICAL EXTREME! I’m sorry, but that just made me laugh. Thank you. Not quite sure why you feel the need to yell either… Perhaps I was being unclear. Our diplomatic relationship with Israel includes and entails us giving them aid. Our diplomatic posture with Israel is one of alliance and aid. You suggested we suspend defense aid as a result of this. I still think it is naive to assume that every single nation on earth isn’t spying, or trying to spy, on every other nation on earth. And that in general punishing other nations, especially our allies, for spying on us is short sighted. > [@Brutus](#): > > When has a agent from a ‘friendly’ country been caught spying on us? (Cite.) Is that supposed to be a question mark instead of a period after ‘cite’? If you are asking for a cite as to what countries have been caught spying on us, I do not have one. Nor do I have a cite for my contention that any government that wants to be informed has to spy on other countries. Nor do I feel like arguing that point as it seems intuitive to me. If necessary I will concede the point to you, as I am uninterested in debating it. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/39 "2004-08-28T07:34:24Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > True, but somehow it seems a combination of ungrateful and just plain devious. I think there’s cause for concern here. I can see how one might read it that way. To me it seems like a combination of pragmatism and ruthlessness. Different strokes I suppose. I would suggest that instead of punishing Israel we should be making sure that it’s harder for us to be spied upon. And yes, I do think that it’s a cause for concern whenever we have any spies in our midst, but I don’t think the correct course of action is to punish allied nations who spy on us. If, however, Israel was behind us attacking Iraq I do think that’s a very bad thing. However, I also think that we’re between a rock and a hard place. We need them as a strategic ally in the region, and can’t afford to do anything that would harm them. At least as far as I see it. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2004, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/40 "2004-08-28T07:38:10Z")
Mutual espionage can have a very positive effect, in that it helps preclude some really, really bad mistakes. For instance, this legend… The Soviets developed a system for detecting subtle signals that might, in aggregate, signal a hostile American intent. Now, we know that we never really had much interest in a first-strike scenario, but _they_ never really accepted it. Hitler’s invasion gave them a permanent case of the heebie-jeebies. At one point, all the indicators went red, but it was all coincidence. Each of the factors that would indicate eminent surprise attack lined up, but they were each, seperately, the result of entirely innocent coincidences. But the Kremlin got spooked, and started jumping at shadows, and ramping up thier alerts… Until they interecepted a Navy message, by way of the top secret code they stole (Aldrich Ames?). It ordered a US nuclear missile sub to return for routine maintenance. So the Soviets figured…if the Americans were about to go berserk, they wouldn’t be calling the sub back for something routine. It would stay on station until Boom Day. So they stood down, and when nothing happened, they changed trousers and got drunk. Hell, I sure would. Now, I’m not going to make any affidavits about this, but you can take my meaning. Hell, if we had had _really_ reliable intelligence about Iraq, we might not be in the pickle we’re in now! I don’t doubt for a minute that the Bushiviks exaggerated thier flimsy intelligence, but if they had known _for sure_ that Saddam had diddly-squat, I don’t think they would have _dared_ pull the shit they pulled. They figured on being proven right and getting away with it. No, mutual spying ought to conducted in a civil fashion. We catch you, we bust you, there is an appropriate display of fuss and feathers, and life goes on. But not, repeat, _not_ to the extent of actually manipulating intelligence for foreign policy aims in their own interest. Thats a whole different kettle of piranha! Its probably not so, and I hope its not so. But we _have_ to know, and to know for sure! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885.md?page=3)