# Another Israeli mole uncovered - Why does Israel feel it can spy on us with impunity? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 28, 2004, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885 "2004-08-28T01:45:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2004, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/121 "2004-08-29T17:14:09Z")
**luci** , You do realize that these meetings that Ghorbanifar set up were with a “former senior member of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard”. This is the exact same group that Aras Karim Habib was a former member of. For those who may not know Mr. Habib was in charge of the Iraqi National Congress’ Information collection program. The one that supplied ‘Curveball’ and the intelligence about the mobile bio-weapons facilities. The ones who supplied the intelligence that Powell described as “deliberately misleading.” For further discussion, see this thread: \*\*[DIA says Iran INC to get US into Invade Iraq?\*\*](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=257550) Interestingly enough, Ghorbanifar is thought by some, (including Ollie North) to work for “at least one” Israeli intelligence service as well as having worked for Savak. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2004, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/122 "2004-08-29T19:47:18Z")
> [@Razorsharp](#): > > No, he/she doesn’t resonably expect a cite, this is the tactic of either trying to score a dabate point, or dismissing an opposing view, by putting up a hoop for the opposition to jump through. Erm… surely you’re not accusing me of lying when I stated, in detail, just why I was asking for a cite? In case you are confused ‘he’, being me, certainly does expect a cite for claims of that sort. This was not a ‘debating tactic’, it’s just good common sense. Someone makes a claim, you ask for proof. I could not ‘[dismiss] an opposing view’ of the person putting forward that view had ironclad facts to back up their position, now could I? > [@Razorsharp](#): > > Now, don’t get me wrong, there are legitimate requests for “cites”, but all too often, there are requests for cites for things that are accepted as common knowledge or personal opinion. Personal opinion generally cant’ stand on an equal level as proven facts, sure as hell not in a debate. If you try to put your opinion up against my fact, you lose 100 times out of 100. Moreover, if someone is ignorant of something that is ‘common knowledge’, and someone shows them a cite, then, viola! Their ignorance is cleared up, now isn’t it? > [@Razorsharp](#): > > It’s also somewhat of an adolescent debate tactic. “Prove the statement you have just made” =/= “Nyeh nyeh! You’re a poopyhead!” > [@Razorsharp](#): > > By the use of the word “own”, it is obvious that it is opinion. Erunh? How is this obvious? If I said “Jews own all the media in America.” Would you be as lax in asking me for a cite? Would you claim that it was only opinion and therefore nobody could challenge it on factual grounds? We’d all just have to accept that there’s a vast Jewish plot to rule the airwaves? The statement “Israel owns us…” seems to be an attempt at making a factual assertion, namely, that Israel has control, or a great deal of control over our officials. This is a claim that must be backed up if it is made. And, I would argue, there is a difference between our officials being influenced by **their personal ideological** desire to help Israel and Israel coming over and **telling them what to do, as they would if we were 'owned’** > [@Razorsharp](#): > > Although “own” could be quite apropos with regards to certain bought-and-paid-for members of congress. Please do not waffle, first you claim it is a simple ‘opinion’, and now you are claiming that it could in fact be applied with truth to certain “bought-and-paid-for members of congress.” Mind providing a **cite** showing certain members of congress are bought and paid for? > [@Razorsharp](#): > > But anyways, here’s a “cite” for you that backs up the opinion that “Israel owns us”. And your cite has been dealt with. Funny though, why the diatribe if you were then going to go and give a cite anyways? * * * **SimonX** : Fnord? ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2004, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/123 "2004-08-29T21:14:30Z")
[FNORD](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=fnord&btnG=Google+Search) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2004, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/124 "2004-08-29T21:47:53Z")
Anhydrous water. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2004, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/125 "2004-08-29T22:08:41Z")
The sound of one hand spanking. ---
**Author:** ![bizzwire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/958977/32.png) [@bizzwire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizzwire)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2004, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/126 "2004-08-30T00:43:57Z")
> [@nonpolar](#): > > You right ,after tens of years siphoning billions of dollars from US tax payers and getting for free latest military equipment any nation would have ,powerefull army for many years ahead.It is obvious. > By the way ,why Israel with some of the smartest people on the face of the earth needs financial help? I understand helping Egypt or other unstable poor countries but why Israel with 80% of Nobel Prise winners? I think that if you tried googling “Foreign aid to Egypt” and “Foreign aid to Israel” you would be mildy surprised. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2004, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/127 "2004-08-30T01:25:19Z")
> [@nonpolar](#): > > I understand helping Egypt or other unstable poor countries but why Israel with 80% of Nobel Prise winners? Wait, how does Israel have 80% of the Nobel Prize winners? As far as I can tell, Israel had 4 Nobel Prize winners: Menachim Begin (Peace) Shimon Peres (Peace) Yitzhak Rabin (Peace) S.Y. Agnon (Literature) and there’s maybe a fifth…Daniel Kahneman (Economics) was born in Mandate Palestine and educated in Israel, but teaches at Princeton (and taught there when he won the Nobel). So, that’s nowhere near 80% ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2004, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/128 "2004-08-30T13:23:13Z")
> [@bizzwire](#): > > I think that if you tried googling “Foreign aid to Egypt” and “Foreign aid to Israel” you would be mildy surprised. Damn straight. The total amount of foreign aid to Egypt from 1948 to 2004 has been $59.9 billion. To Israel, over the same period, $93.4 billion. As I’ve said before, very nearly one-third of all US foreign aid goes to these two countries. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2004, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/129 "2004-08-30T14:05:43Z")
So who were the al Qaeda members that the neocons stopped us from getting? > [@](#): > > "These three, among the most wanted members of Al Qaeda. The alleged poison expert who got medical treatment in Iraq, [Abu Mussab al Zarqawi]. Bin Laden’s third oldest son, [Sa’ad bin Laden], known to be planning new Al Qaeda operations. The Al Qaeda spokesman, [Suleiman abu Gaith], famous for introducing bin Laden in this videotape after 9/11. Many US officials believe that Iran is willing to turn them and other key Al Qaeda operatives over to the US or their home countries – > > Iran is reported to have Abu Musab al-Zarqawi in custody in summer of 2003, and to be entirely willing to hand him over to the US in return for some high-ranking MEK terrorists. But first the neocon network, including Franklin, Harold Rhode and Michael Ledeen, intervenes to stop the trade (see below). Then, mysteriously, everything that goes wrong in Iraq from about January of 2004 begins being blamed on Zarqawi [Juan Cole](http://www.juancole.com/2004_08_01_juancole_archive.html#109383994241733290) If [Zarqawi is responsible for a quarter of the stuff we blame him for](http://www.google.com/search?as_q=&num=10&hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&btnG=Google+Search&as_epq=Zarqawi+blamed&as_oq=&as_eq=&lr=&as_ft=i&as_filetype=&as_qdr=all&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&as_occt=any&as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=&safe=images), Franklin and Rhode have some _serious_ explaining to do. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2004, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/130 "2004-08-30T16:33:09Z")
from [here](http://newsjunkiesunanimous.com/moon_view_finals/pentagonsrogueelement.html) w/ permission > [@](#): > > So, what we have here is a group of US DoD employees who’ve managed to get themselves suspected of helping Israel a little more than should. They’ve gone behind the backs of the CIA, State Dept and the White House to wheel and deal with an intelligence fabricator and nuisance who’s linked to one (or more) of Israel’s security services. > One of the reasons these DoD employees were wheeling and dealing with a known peddler of false information was to acquire information. After one of the meetings, made possible by the (former?) agent of “at least one” Israeli security service, one of these DoD employees calls home and asks for money, a “sizable financial interest”. > The FBI seems to have good reason to be concerned about what’s going on here. > > These meetings between DoD personel and Iranian dissidents who are aniticpating regime change in Iran endangered the chances for the success of ongoing diplomatic endeavors regarding Iran. This may have been the intention of this ‘rogue element’ in the Pentagon. > The FBI seems to have good reason to be concerned about what’s going on here too. > > They’d better be concerned. The diplomatic negotiations with Iran that were disrupted by the Pentagon’s rogue element involved swapping Iran’s al Qaeda detainees for some of our Mujahedin e Khalq detainees. > If it hadn’t been for these gentelmen, Abu Zarqawi (and one or more of his legs) might be in US custody (again.) > > “The purpose of the meeting with Ghorbanifar was to undermine a pending deal that the White House had been negotiating with the Iranian government. At the time, Iran had considered turning over five al-Qaida operatives in exchange for Washington dropping its support for Mujahadeen Khalq, an Iraq-based rebel Iranian group listed as a terrorist organization by the State Department.” > [Who is Larry Franklin?](http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1093674510896) > _Aug. 28, 2004 Jerusalem Post_. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2004, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/131 "2004-08-30T19:05:10Z")
> [@SimonX](#): > > from [here](http://newsjunkiesunanimous.com/moon_view_finals/pentagonsrogueelement.html) w/ permission Junkies Unanimous **Simon**? Nice catch, but I think even old **december** would’ve thought twice before postings that link. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2004, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/132 "2004-08-30T19:31:34Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Erm… surely you’re not accusing me of lying when I stated, in detail, just why I was asking for a cite? “Stated in detail”?? You call this stating in detail… > [@](#): > > _Originally Posted by FinnAgain_ > Israel owns us? > Cite? Na, I wouldn’t accuse you of lyin’. > [@](#): > > Please do not waffle, first you claim it is a simple ‘opinion’, and now you are claiming that it could in fact be applied with truth to certain “bought-and-paid-for members of congress.” > Mind providing a **cite** showing certain members of congress are bought and paid for? You are familiar with AIPAC, aren’t you? Now, when AIPAC makes a donation to a congressman’s reelection, would you suppose that the congressman who receives the donation would be expected to vote accordingly, or do you think that AIPAC is donating to the congressman’s campaign out of benevolence? Which do you think? Now, don’t waffle. Oh, and here’s a “cite” for you. > [@](#): > > The first pro-Israel PAC was formed in 1978, but there was little activity until 1982 when thirty-three pro-Israel PACs contributed $1.87 million to congressional candidates. Like other PACs, most of this money was given to incumbents and, because of the long association of Jews with the Democratic party, nearly 80 percent went to Democrats. The number of PACs more than doubled in 1984 as did their contributions. It was estimated that more than seventy pro-Israel PACs spent a little more than $4 million in 1984. By 1988, the figure was nearly $5 million. According to the Center for Responsive Politics, pro-Israel interests have contributed \ $41.3 million in individual, PAC, and soft money contributions to national-level candidates and national party committees, but even these contributions are dwarfed by those of labor unions, lawyers, doctors, and trade associations. In fact, out of 80 “industries,” the pro-Israel contributors rank only 39th. > [http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/lobby.html](http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/lobby.html) ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2004, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/133 "2004-08-30T19:46:09Z")
> [@Finagle](#): > > Please. A cite from the "The Independent Palestinian Information Network "? And I suppose that you think that CAMERA is an unbiased and objective source? ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2004, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/134 "2004-08-30T20:06:26Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Junkies Unanimous **Simon**? > Nice catch, but I think even old **december** would’ve thought twice before postings that link. 🙂 _ **News** _ Junkies Unanimous ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2004, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/135 "2004-08-30T20:10:38Z")
> [@Razorsharp](#): > > “Stated in detail”?? You call this stating in detail… Nope, I call this: > [@FinnAgain](#): > > “Israel owns us” is not an opinion. > It is a statement that either has a factual basis, or does not. > It’s an accusation with very serious consequences and it requires proof. > > You can’t make a charge like that and then retreat behind the position that it’s only an opinion. > > Same as if someone said “Group X controls the media.” > Give proof or retract. stating in detail. > [@Razorsharp](#): > > Na, I wouldn’t accuse you of lyin’. As I’ve stated I am serious in my desire for factual confirmation, how am I to take your claim that I am, in reality, not serious? Do you retract your statement that: > [@Razorsharp](#): > > No, he/she doesn’t resonably expect a cite, this is the tactic of either trying to score a dabate point, or dismissing an opposing view, by putting up a hoop for the opposition to jump through. ? ? ? > [@Razorsharp](#): > > " > Now, when AIPAC makes a donation to a congressman’s reelection, would you suppose that the congressman who receives the donation would be expected to vote accordingly, or do you think that AIPAC is donating to the congressman’s campaign out of benevolence? Pointing to the fact that politicians take money from people is certainly no proof that they’re bought-and-paid for. By your logic, every single congressman who ever takes a dime (or is it only a sizeable ammount?) from a PAC or other group is 'bought-and-paid-for." Prove that taking money from AIPAC determines their agenda. Further, prove that if they do vote in accord with AIPAC’s positions, that those votes aren’t in the congressman’s district’s and/or the nation’s best interests in any case. (or best interests as seen by the congressman) > [@Razorsharp](#): > > By the use of the word “own”, it is obvious that it is opinion. And then the very next sentence: > [@Razorsharp](#): > > Although “own” could be quite apropos with regards to certain bought-and-paid-for members of congress. So, do you just want to argue both sides of the issue to cover your bases? Is it an opinion and thus, in your opinion ~grins~, invulnerable to requests for proof… Or is it a fact, and thus totally vulnerable to analysis on factual and logical grounds? Please choose one position or the other, as, if you attempt to argue both, you are waffling. > [@Razorsharp](#): > > Which do you think? Now, don’t waffle. Oh, and here’s a “cite” for you. And: yes, you have a cite (why the quotes?) proving that pro Israel-PAC’s give money to candidates and participate in the political process. Your own cite says that there are 38 groups that give more money. Are we to assume that those 38 groups have bought-and-paid-for congressmen? Do these PAC’s have to divy up the congressmen, or are some bought-and-paid-for by various, contradictory ideologies? How do the bought-and-paid-for congressmen respond to being ‘owned’ by multiple lobiests? Do the top fourty groups meet and discuss who gets a percentage of various politicians’ souls, or is it more a first-come-first-served sorta thing? ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2004, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/136 "2004-08-30T20:24:01Z")
> [@Razorsharp](#): > > And I suppose that you think that CAMERA is an unbiased and objective source? Unbiased? No. In this case, more accurate than your pathetic source? Yes. Or did you notice that no reputable news organization on the planet ran with the story? Even the UK papers that have no history of being kindly disposed to Israel? Did you notice that every site on the web that cited your alleged news story repeated it word-for-word, indicating that it arose from a single questionable source? There’s no transcript of the news story in question and no independent verification to be found. Even though if the “quote” were genuine, it would have generated vast ripples. Your cite is bogus, and no competent debater would present it at face value without doing enough research to learn that it was bogus. ---
**Author:** ![annaplurabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@annaplurabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annaplurabelle)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2004, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/137 "2004-08-30T23:12:02Z")
> [@SimonX](#): > > I almost forgot to link to Michael Ledeen’s negative pregnant denial. These are excellent specimens. > > \*\*[RE: AN ISRAELI MOLE AT THE PENTAGON\*\*](http://www.nationalreview.com/thecorner/04_08_22_corner-archive.asp#038647) > > I’ll have a conversation with Angleton about it over the weekend and post it Monday morning. > > Any ideas who or what Angleton is? Sorry I missed this post the other night (why I re-posted the same cite). But Angleton?!! [Here](http://www.nationalreview.com/ledeen/ledeen200404120851.asp): > [@](#): > > **Signals & Background Noise > Angleton on Clarke, Condi, and who knew what when.** > > This time he called me. Every time in the past, I had had to fiddle with the dials on the ouija board until I connected to my old friend, **James Jesus Angleton, the late chief of CIA counterintelligence**. But this time the board started to spark and sputter, and I ran over to find him in high dudgeon. I told you Ledeen was the cutest. Just for you, from the [UK Sunday Express](http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=3425187): **BUSH AIDE FACES QUIZ OVER LINKS TO ISRAELI SPY** **Richard Perle** , one of President Bush’s closest allies, is expected to be questioned by the FBI this week about an Israeli spy in the Pentagon. No copy on the net yet, but someone posted excerpts on another board: “The Sunday Express has learnt that some of the information allegedly passed on came from telephone calls made by a member of MI6 to Perle and two other senior members of the Bush administration – Vice President Dick Cheney and Paul Wolfowitz…” “A senior Washington intelligence source told the Sunday Express yesterday: ‘The MI6 figure made those calls because he wanted MI6 information to dovetail with what the Washington neo-cons wanted Bush to hear.’…” “The FBI investigtion team is being supported by a special Pentagon unit under the control of John Shaw, a deputy director of defence. He is working closely with FBI director Robert Mueller.” Bearing in mind that this is coming from a rag… but _very_ interesting if true. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/138 "2004-08-31T00:36:20Z")
> [@annaplurabelle](#): > > Sorry I missed this post the other night (why I re-posted the same cite). But Angleton?!! [Here](http://www.nationalreview.com/ledeen/ledeen200404120851.asp):I told you Ledeen was the cutest. I found that Angleton, but I assumed that because he was dead that was out of the running. Little did I know. > [@annaplurabelle](#): > > Just for you, from the [UK Sunday Express](http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=3425187): I saw something else that had Perle’s name in it, but I forget now where it was. He was just being tied into the zoo crew featured in this thread. I’m always flabbergasted that Perle has been able to survive in public life. I’m always amazed at how little of a reaction his exploits engender. Prince of Darkness indeed. I’m not an isolationist and have numerous other disagreements with the man, but Buchanan’s starting to look less kooky than before. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/139 "2004-08-31T12:30:09Z")
It is absofuckinglutely amazing to me that these people involved with this stuff are not strange fruit dangling from a tall tree over a crowd of justified patriots. The OSP has screwed America so hatrd and so royally since the gitgo. They cherry picked the pre-war inetl used to sell the war (esp what was used in teh media). They made sure that deliberately misleading evidence provided through Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corp agents made it’s way into the hands of the American electiorate, legislative and executive branches. The OSP scrapped the year long efforts of the hundreds of Americans and Iraqis in the State Department’s Future of Iraq project infavor of a few months work from their office. The horrible, grisly results of their mistakes are growing more apparent every day. The OSP used worst case scenarios tosell te invasion of Iraq while using fairy tale best case scenarios to plan for the reconstruction phase of the invasion. They were responsible for the leaking of classififed material to the media (NRO). They are at the center of the Iranian spy scandal. And now, they are at the center of the Israeli spy scandal. Why _do_ these people hate America so much? ---
**Author:** ![annaplurabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@annaplurabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annaplurabelle)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/140 "2004-08-31T18:20:29Z")
> [@SimonX](#): > > It is absofuckinglutely amazing to me that these people involved with this stuff are not strange fruit dangling from a tall tree over a crowd of justified patriots. > > Why _do_ these people hate America so much? For the same reason Rush Limbaugh holds his fans in contempt - they not only get away with it, they are _rewarded_ for it. Rush was a failure before he got with the program (although I do think there’s a spark of humanity left in Rush - he’s not a happy man in spite of his success, is he?). You may as well ask why America rewards those who hold it in contempt. Everybody loves a winner, right? Just for fun, read Ledeen’s take on Iran-Contra via the [rogerlsimon](http://www.rogerlsimon.com/mt-archives/2004/08/my_grandmother.php#c10470) blog: > [@](#): > > But, just as when I was in the govt and reading lots of classified information, I find that most of the important information is publicly available. It is rare that “secret” information changes the picture of the world. Which in a way is disappointing–I was very excited at the beginning because I thought I’d finally learn the real truth about the world, only to find that it was already out there–but is quite encouraging to those who believe in democracy. If you work hard enough, you can find out the important things. > > with that in mind, let me try gently to correct one misconception that I think you’ve bought: the story of Iran-Contra is NOT the story of “rogue” operations; it’s the story of people doing very stupid things. I wrote a book about it that I wanted to call “Worse Than a Crime,” from Talleyrand’s wonderful description of one of Napoleon’s idiocies: “it was worse than a crime, it was a blunder.” \*\*Notice that nobody ever was prosecuted for any “criminal” activity save for cheating on income tax (one person), failing to declare a security fence as income (one other person, O. North) and “making false statements to Congress,” which had never been used against govt officials before and which, if applied even-handedly, would probably put every public official behind bars. > > North’s operations were known to anyone, in the executive branch, in congress, in the media, who wanted to know about them. They were approved by most of the leaders, and those who didn’t approve, didn’t fight very hard to stop them.\*\* > > Government isn’t as interesting as the movies make it out to be. Most of what happens is slow, boring, grinding debate in interagency meetings, then transferred to collective memos, and finally resolved by the president. > > The very idea that information about the endless policy debate is so sensitive, that putting it in the hands of some foreign government somehow compromises national security, is so fanciful that it makes me wonder–really–how bigtime journalists have the nerve to write it without challenging it. Get the picture? It wasn’t a crime, it was a “crime”. It’s not reality, it’s “reality”. And “reality” is so much more fun than those “boring” debates. In moments of doubt, read _The Prince_ again, channel a dead guy, and laugh all the way to the bank… BTW, are you following Perle via Hollinger? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885.md?page=8)