# Another Israeli mole uncovered - Why does Israel feel it can spy on us with impunity? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 28, 2004, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885 "2004-08-28T01:45:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/141 "2004-08-31T19:05:42Z")
> [@annaplurabelle](#): > > For the same reason Rush Limbaugh holds his fans in contempt - they not only get away with it, they are _rewarded_ for it. I was beginning to think I was the only one who heard him this way. This is why I enjoy listening to Rush so much. He is truly an unsung genius at what he does. I’ve been trying to sell **luci** on Rush for some time, but I don’t think it’s taking. > [@annaplurabelle](#): > > …he’s not a happy man in spite of his success, is he?). hwo knows? He says he is. But he does say it three or four times every hour, so maybe he protests too much. I bet he is though. The human capacity for rationalization should not be underestimated. > [@annaplurabelle](#): > > Just for fun, read Ledeen’s take on Iran-Contra via the [rogerlsimon](http://www.rogerlsimon.com/mt-archives/2004/08/my_grandmother.php#c10470) blog: Get the picture? It wasn’t a crime, it was a “crime”. It’s not reality, it’s “reality”. And “reality” is so much more fun than those “boring” debates. You know, when I was younger and more idealistic, I wanted to be a poet because I loved the power of words so much. Now I realize that politicians have poets whupped hands down when it comes to knowig the power of words. > [@annaplurabelle](#): > > BTW, are you following Perle via Hollinger? No, but I suspect I’d like to. linksies? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/142 "2004-08-31T19:21:57Z")
There’s something goddam strange going on here, it is the dog that isn’t barking. The level of outrage over this story seems to be right next to non-existent. Nobody seems to much give a shit, save our own **SimonX** , who is throwing midair conniption fits with hair ablaze. Rightly, in my estimation, but that’s niether here nor there. As Clemenceau once remarked "_Que c’est le fuque?"_ > [@](#): > > …I’ve been trying to sell luci on Rush for some time, but I don’t think it’s taking… Cold, dead hands… ---
**Author:** ![vibrotronica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a9a28c/32.png) [@vibrotronica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vibrotronica)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/143 "2004-08-31T19:44:15Z")
Imagine what the reaction would be to this headline: **FBI Probes French Mole at Pentagon** ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/144 "2004-08-31T19:59:21Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > There’s something goddam strange going on here, it is the dog that isn’t barking. The level of outrage over this story seems to be right next to non-existent. Maybe this kind of stuff is just too full of fnords? These kinds of things are hard to believe. I think one has to be rigorous about citations for this crap to keep from vanishing in Chapel Perilous as a paranoid conspiracist. > [@elucidator](#): > > Nobody seems to much give a shit, save our own **SimonX** , who is throwing midair conniption fits with hair ablaze. My wife doesn’t always let me do this sort of thing. On this she’s indulging me. > [@elucidator](#): > > Cold, dead hands… Remember, he’s making fun of his listeners. It’s really very, very funny once you apply the appropriate Straussian methods of extrapolation to his discourse. I’m sure you’d approve of the jokes if only you heard them. One of my favorites where Rush was really on his game, was when a caller was complaining about evilution being taught in public schools. It was absolutely masterful and brilliant use of English. He left the caller with the impression that Rush agreed with him, yet never made any attempt to refute evilution or promote creationism. All the while he addressed issues that were of direct interest to the caller. I could’ve done the same thing _on paper_, but it would’ve taken me an all nighter, a quart of Turkish coffee and gallon of wine. Here was Rush doing it (apparently) while flying by the seat of his pants, live on air. Amazing. Liberals will never, ever be able to counter-act the Limbaugh effect until they become one with it. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/145 "2004-08-31T20:03:52Z")
> [@vibrotronica](#): > > Imagine what the reaction would be to this headline: > > **FBI Probes French Mole at Pentagon** sniggering at the proximity of ‘probes’ and ‘French’. Maybe that’s just me. She said French hole. ---
**Author:** ![annaplurabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@annaplurabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annaplurabelle)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/146 "2004-08-31T20:23:24Z")
> [@SimonX](#): > > I was beginning to think I was the only one who heard him this way. This is why I enjoy listening to Rush so much. He is truly an unsung genius at what he does. I’ve been trying to sell **luci** on Rush for some time, but I don’t think it’s taking. It would be genius if it were satire. Or recognised as such. Unsung is the key word. > [@SimonX](#): > > hwo knows? He says he is. But he does say it three or four times every hour, so maybe he protests too much. > I bet he is though. The human capacity for rationalization should not be underestimated. Three failed marriages and a nasty drug habit. Unsung, remember… > [@SimonX](#): > > You know, when I was younger and more idealistic, I wanted to be a poet because I loved the power of words so much. Now I realize that politicians have poets whupped hands down when it comes to knowig the power of words. And weren’t all of those neocons idealists at one time? > [@SimonX](#): > > No, but I suspect I’d like to. > linksies? Report out today. [**Hollinger directors to come under fire**](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20040830/RHOLLING30//?query=perle): Several directors of Hollinger International Inc. will come under strong criticism from the special committee of the firm’s board when it releases its long-awaited report today into alleged wrongdoing among company executives. Getting the most heat among the directors will be U.S. Defence department adviser Richard Perle, who will be singled out among the group, sources say. “Perle is in a category by himself,” said one source who is familiar with the contents of the report. Mr. Perle’s venture capital company, Trireme Partners LP, received a $2.5-million (U.S.) investment from Hollinger International, according to securities filings. He was also chairman of Hollinger Digital LLC, an arm of the firm that allegedly paid millions of dollars in inappropriate bonuses to executives, according to a suit filed by the special committee. [**Hollinger branded ‘kleptocracy’**](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20040831.wholling0831/BNStory/Business/?query=perle): Inc. chairman Conrad Black and his lieutenant David Radler engaged in “self-righteous and aggressive looting” of the company, creating a “corporate kleptocracy” that cost the newspaper publisher almost all its profit over seven years, a long-awaited special committee report charged Tuesday. As a whole, the committee also said Hollinger’s board was “not alert” but added that independent board members - **with the exception of former U.S. defence adviser Richard Perle** , who the committee said they didn’t consider independent - also acted reasonably given what they were relying on reports of the audit committee. [**Richard Perle, Hollinger & His Global Web of Fraud**](http://www.conspiracyplanet.com/channel.cfm?channelid=2&contentid=1508): What connects Richard Perle to Douglas Feith, Donald Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, ELF Oil, Lord Black, Iraq, Israel, Iran, Henry Kissinger, Richard Nixon, Bush Snr and Bush Jnr, Tony Blair, Margaret Thatcher, John Major, China, Adnan Kashoggi, Saudi Arabia, Global Crossings, Boeing, Halliburton, the DoD? Answer: Money, filthy lucre, loot, cash, dosh, greenbacks, call it what you will, the so-called leaders of the ‘free world’ are hooked on its possession and will do anything to get their grubby hands on it. All else is window dressing for the ‘masses’. Answer: Money, filthy lucre, loot, cash, dosh, greenbacks, call it what you will, the so-called leaders of the ‘free world’ are hooked on its possession and will do anything to get their grubby hands on it. All else is window dressing for the ‘masses’. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/147 "2004-08-31T21:28:15Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] There’s something goddam strange going on here, it is the dog that isn’t barking. The level of outrage over this story seems to be right next to non-existent.QUOTE]If I believed any of this, I’d have to ask myself how to tell a thousand dead Americans that they sacrificed themselves for a lie. The thought of doing that stresses me out so much that I seek comfort in obsessing over the impossible conundrum of deciding which child is most in need of up-picking. Wouldn’t it be wonderful if we could somehow pick up _all_ the children! ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/148 "2004-09-01T14:12:28Z")
\*\*[2d probe at the Pentagon examines actions on Iraq\*\*](http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/08/31/2d_probe_at_the_pentagon_examines_actions_on_iraq/) _Boston Globe August 31, 2004_ WASHINGTON – The Pentagon office in which an analyst is the focus of an investigation into the possible passing of secret documents to Israel is at the heart of another ongoing probe on Capitol Hill." They contend that the now-defunct Policy Counterterrorism Coordination Group, set up after the Sept. 11 attacks to search for links between Al Qaeda and state sponsors such as Iraq, never gathered intelligence; it only reevaluated previous government findings. The Iraq War planning group called the Office of Special Plans, meanwhile, did not engage in any wrongdoing or questionable contacts, they said.Fun with negative pregnants: note the specificity of the language in these ^ denials. contd…But investigators for the [Senate Intelligence Committee](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=242238), which is closely scrutinizing the office as part of a formal probe of pre-Iraq War intelligence-gathering, and Democratic members of the House Judiciary Committee, who are conducting a preliminary probe, say that the full picture of the office’s activities may include more than meets the eye. They are seeking additional documents and interviews from policy officials. **After months of delay** , the investigators said, they are getting cooperation from Feith and his staff. _© Copyright 2004 Globe Newspaper Company_ “[wicked nasty shit](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=5207605#post5207605)” ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/149 "2004-09-01T14:26:41Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > There’s something goddam strange going on here, it is the dog that isn’t barking. The level of outrage over this story seems to be right next to non-existent. Someone who was cynical might speculate that the quiet is a sign of how different campaign warchests have AIPAC monies in them. I’ve heard that it’s not uncommon. Yet another reason why artificial persons should lose their privileges to lobby legislatures and contribute to election campaigns. It’s the single best idea I’ve come up with for combating the insiduously deleterious effects of rational ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2004, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/150 "2004-09-02T21:44:52Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > As I’ve stated I am serious in my desire for factual confirmation, how am I to take your claim that I am, in reality, not serious? Because, in the context of their usage, “own” and “bought and paid for” are what are commonly referred to as euphemisms. (look it up) > [@](#): > > Pointing to the fact that politicians take money from people is certainly no proof that they’re bought-and-paid for. > [@](#): > > So, do you just want to argue both sides of the issue to cover your bases? Is it an opinion and thus, in your opinion ~grins~, invulnerable to requests for proof… The demanding of “proof” to substantiate a euphemism is another example of what I referred to as adolescent debating tactics. (Grinnin’ back at 'cha) > [@](#): > > Prove that taking money from AIPAC determines their agenda. Well, when Congressman Dingleberry receives an annual stipend from Lobby A, and subsuquently votes to send American tax-dollars to Lobby A’s interests, it may not meet the burden of “proof”, but it most certainly is circumstantial evidence. > [@](#): > > Further, prove that if they do vote in accord with AIPAC’s positions, that those votes aren’t in the congressman’s district’s and/or the nation’s best interests in any case. You do remember what happened on 9-11-2001, right? There’s a elephant sitting in the livingroom, and not only is it not acknowledged, it’s presence is actually denyed. America’s foreign policy regarding the Middle East, can be traced directly to 9-11. George Washington, during his farewell address, gave those charged with the future governance of the United States some advice. > [@](#): > > …a passionate attachment of one nation for another produces a variety of evils. Sympathy for the favorite nation, facilitating the illusion of an imaginary common interest in cases where no real common interest exists, and infusing into one the enmities of the other, betrays the former into a participation in the quarrels and wars of the latter, without adequate inducements or justifications. It also leads to concessions, to the favorite nation, of privileges denied to others, which is apt doubly to injure the nation making the concessions, by unnecessary parting with what ought to have been retained and by exciting jealousy, ill will and a disposition to retaliate in the parties from whom equal privileges are withheld … > George Washington, 1796 Of course, our modern-day legislators know so much better than those who founded the Republic, of what is best for today’s America. Well, how has that worked out? Just look at today’s Manhattan skyline. > [@](#): > > Or is it a fact, and thus totally vulnerable to analysis on factual and logical grounds? Again, “bought and paid for” is a EUPHEMISM, hardly something that could be called a fact. However, when one takes money to perform a task, the “bought and paid for” designation is quite apropos. > [@](#): > > Please choose one position or the other, as, if you attempt to argue both, you are waffling. No, you are the one waffling. I asked you whether or not a reciepient of an AIPAC contribution was expected to vote accordingly, or if AIPAC gave contributions out of benevolence. You refuse to answer. > [@Finagle](#): > > Unbiased? No. In this case, more accurate than your pathetic source? Bull… CAMERA’s main objective appears to be to exonerate Israel of any malfeasance. Ergo, CAMERA has no more, or no less credibility, than a so-called “anti-semetic” website. > [@](#): > > Or did you notice that no reputable news organization on the planet ran with the story? Kinda like no “reputable” news organization ran with the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty. Like no “reputable” news organizations ran with the Israeli “art student” espionage story. And no “reputable” news organization ran with Israeli “movers” high-fivin’ and dancin’ the hora over the destruction of the World Trade Center. ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2004, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/151 "2004-09-02T21:57:03Z")
Oh, but every “reputable” news organization ran with former Israeli Prime Minister, Benjimin Netanyahu’s “big lie”. > [@](#): > > They don’t hate America because of Israel, they hate Israel because of America. Well, if that’s the case, I’ve got a solution to all of Israel’s problems. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2004, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/152 "2004-09-02T22:02:19Z")
You’re gonna have to cite that one, **Raze**. Not saying I don’t buy it, but that’s a big 'un. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/153 "2004-09-03T02:22:08Z")
> [@Razorsharp](#): > > Because, in the context of their usage, “own” and “bought and paid for” are what are commonly referred to as euphemisms. (look it up) Actually, no, they’re not euphemisms. [you look it up](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=euphemism) They’re not attempting to make anything less harsh, and if they’re not factual, then they’re wrong. > [@Razorsharp](#): > > The demanding of “proof” to substantiate a euphemism is another example of what I referred to as adolescent debating tactics. First, you’d do well to know what the words you are using **mean** before you accuse someone else of anything. Second, if I used the euphemism “Person X and person Y were intimate.” instead of saying they were fucking, would that then mean that you couldn’t evaluate the factual nature of my statement because I used a euphemism? > [@Razorsharp](#): > > Well, when Congressman Dingleberry receives an annual stipend from Lobby A, and subsuquently votes to send American tax-dollars to Lobby A’s interests, it may not meet the burden of “proof”, So in other words, **zero proof?**. Or are you honestly taking the position that lobying=owning politicians? > [@Razorsharp](#): > > but it most certainly is circumstantial evidence.You do remember what happened on 9-11-2001, right? Yes, but I’m guessing that you’re going to somehow try to link it to something without providing proof. > [@Razorsharp](#): > > There’s a elephant sitting in the livingroom, and not only is it not acknowledged, it’s presence is actually denyed. Mind elaborating on what this elephant is and how you can prove its existence? > [@Razorsharp](#): > > America’s foreign policy regarding the Middle East, can be traced directly to 9-11. To a certain degree, yes. What is this supposed to prove? > [@Razorsharp](#): > > Well, how has that worked out? Just look at today’s Manhattan skyline Okay, you are drawing what conclusion? And you are prepared to back it up with which facts? > [@Razorsharp](#): > > .Again, “bought and paid for” is a EUPHEMISM, hardly something that could be called a fact. However, when one takes money to perform a task, the “bought and paid for” designation is quite apropos. Again, you’re using that word incorrectly. Even if it is ‘only an opinion’, opinions must be based on fact or be incorrect. And, **stop waffling**. Either it is a factual position and thus you can analyze its truth content, or it is an '“opinion”, “euphemism” etc… and thus, in your mistaken opinion, it is invulnerable to challenge. Pick **one** side of the fence please. > [@Razorsharp](#): > > No, you are the one waffling. I asked you whether or not a reciepient of an AIPAC contribution was expected to vote accordingly, or if AIPAC gave contributions out of benevolence. You refuse to answer. … You are attempting to argue two contradictory positions and talking out of both sides of your mouth. And **I** am the one waffling? Yes, I refuse to answer as your question is both loaded and ridiculous. As your own cite pointed out, there are 38 major lobying organizations before AIPAC, and you are accusing **not one single one** of ‘owning’ the federal government. Yes, people give money to politicians they think will vote their way, or who they want to convince to vote their way. And yet, you have still failed to find voting records of elected officials who have changed their views when given filthy filthy lucre. Unless you want me to accept that lobying, in and or itself, is equal to ‘owning’ politicians, you have a lot of work left to do. > [@Razorsharp](#): > > And no “reputable” news organization ran with Israeli “movers” high-fivin’ and dancin’ the hora over the destruction of the World Trade Center. Pardon? Or is this another ‘opinion’ that doesn’t have to be backed up with facts? ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/154 "2004-09-03T02:37:06Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Or are you honestly taking the position that lobying=owning politicians? _ **Effective** _ lobbying is owning politicians. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/155 "2004-09-03T02:44:28Z")
Or, in some cases, owning the bureaucrats who set policy behind the politicians backs. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/156 "2004-09-03T03:12:59Z")
> [@SimonX](#): > > _ **Effective** _ lobbying is owning politicians. How would you quantify the effectiveness quotient of a group, and how would you qualify being ‘owned?’ ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/157 "2004-09-03T04:06:56Z")
**Squink** and **SimonX** : Even if you believe that effective lobbying guarantees control of politicians, do you think that one special interest group controls a majority or totality of them? If not, how do you believe the power structure is divided? Do we have data on which groups are more effective than others? And, perhaps **RazorSharp** , you meant ‘hyperbole’ not ‘euphemism?’ ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/158 "2004-09-03T04:40:20Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > How would you quantify the effectiveness quotient of a group, and how would you qualify being ‘owned?’ Sorry, just couldn’t walk past that straightline. ‘Owned’, in this instance, is a statement of opinion. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/159 "2004-09-03T04:53:14Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > **Squink** and **SimonX** : Even if you believe that effective lobbying guarantees control of politicians, do you think that one special interest group controls a majority or totality of them? If not, how do you believe the power structure is divided? Do we have data on which groups are more effective than others? Here’s a painless primer on [**rational ignorance**](http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/wew/articles/01/rational-ignorance.html), _the_ number one threat facing the republic (don’t listen to **elucidator** ). Read it first. Special interest groups don’t seek to control a politician per se, so much as they seek to have rules and laws made/enforced in manners that they find fitting. What a pol does on other, unrelated issues isn’t of much concern. Each special interest group has varying levels of success with different endeavors. The crux of this big biscuit is that there’s no PAC for representing the best interests of Americans now and to come. The theory is that the politician’s will do this. However, the necessary oversight of the electorate is inadequate. The pol’s acting solely in the best interests of the nation sometimes doesn’t reward politicians’ efforts as well as acting in the best interests of those who help them stay elected. It’s just how the game is currently designed. (Not that this removes one whit of responsibility from the shoulders of corrupt politicians) ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885/160 "2004-09-03T05:19:11Z")
> [@SimonX](#): > > Here’s a painless primer on [**rational ignorance**](http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/wew/articles/01/rational-ignorance.html), _the_ number one threat facing the republic (don’t listen to **elucidator** ). Read it first. > > Special interest groups don’t seek to control a politician per se, so much as they seek to have rules and laws made/enforced in manners that they find fitting. What a pol does on other, unrelated issues isn’t of much concern. Each special interest group has varying levels of success with different endeavors. > > The crux of this big biscuit is that there’s no PAC for representing the best interests of Americans now and to come. The theory is that the politician’s will do this. However, the necessary oversight of the electorate is inadequate. The pol’s acting solely in the best interests of the nation sometimes doesn’t reward politicians’ efforts as well as acting in the best interests of those who help them stay elected. It’s just how the game is currently designed. (Not that this removes one whit of responsibility from the shoulders of corrupt politicians) Ahhhh. Now that the phrase is refined, I can grok it. So we are not ‘owned’ by any group, that is an hyperbole: instead, the political process lends itself abuse by special interest groups with lots of cash. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-israeli-mole-uncovered-why-does-israel-feel-it-can-spy-on-us-with-impunity/261885.md?page=9)