Israel is one of the pawns on the Middle East chessboard. We know it. They know it. It’s in their best interest to know what we’re planning on doing in the region, so it’s quite natural that they spy on us. As pointed out above, everybody who can spies on us, friend and foe alike. We’re the biggest power in the world today, and knowing our next move is of strategic value to many other nations. The game is we spy; they spy; we catch their spies; they catch our spies; concerned parties negotiate for the return of spies, or spies are imprisoned or killed, depending on the circumstances. The fact is, if we suddenly crack down hard on someone elses spies, we may be endangering our own, so it’s not so easy to ratchet up the consequences of intercepted espionage without damaging our own interests and risking our own assets.
Fair enough. Everything is bound by some sorts of limits of proportionality. There’s quite a bit of breathing room between $0.00 and the current aid packages to Israel.
“American counterintelligence officials say that Israeli espionage cases are difficult to investigate, because they involve an important ally that enjoys broad political influence in Washington. Several officials said that a number of espionage investigations involving Israel had been dropped or suppressed in the past in the face of political pressure.”
Pentagon Official Suspected of Giving U.S. Secrets to Israel
Granted that countries spy on each other all the time, but this is ridiculous. Israel has much too much influence over our policies already and should be told to fuck off.
Smoke and mirrors people! All this about Israeli spies is just a game to show more and more displeased Americans that top brass in Washington is not completelly influenced by Israel and deals with Israeli “spies” equally as with other spies.
I’ll bet this story came about as an unintended consequence of the Chalabi investigation:
Who could ever have imagined two spys, working for different countries, lurking at the heart of our military policy apparatus?
This investigation has been going on for more than a year.
Cause, effect.
Effect, cause.
What’s the difference? :smack:
The two cases probably intersect in mysterious and wonderful ways.
All the evidence is to the contrary.
All the evidence is to the contrary.
Mind providing a cite for all this ‘evidence’?
Becuase last time I checked we want a stable and democratic ally in the middle east.
So your first quibble is incorrect.
And since their economy and millitary are largely funded by us, your second quibble is also incorrect.
Please provide cites.
One does not want to make wild accusations. But there are possible implications here that I want sorted out immediatly. I don’t think anybody could doubt that it was entirely in Israels “interest” that Saddam be taken out. And we already know that there are “connections” between Luti and Chalabi (damn sure more certain connections than between Saddam and Al Queda!)
So the possibility exists that Israel had a hand in passing along cooked intelligence to convince the US that Saddam was an immediate threat. By way of Chalabi? Chalabi the dupe, Chalabi the crook, or Chalabi the Ruler in waiting…
Clearly, no evidence has yet come to light to make these suspicions any more than suspicions. But they must either be put to rest, with a stake through the heart, or we get one hell of a good explanation why not.
Drag everything out into the sunlight, we need to be sure. Very, very sure. If its true than Isreal manipulated US intelligence and US policy in order to foment a war with Iraq, I am going to be one mad mo-fo! I have always had sympathy for Israel, and I admired their restraint in GW 1. But this would really, really tear it!
But if it isn’t true, we must be even more clear. The last thing I want to do is juice up the anti-Semitic element in America. Yuck-o-rama.
Talk about with waltzing with a porcupine…
(I’ve been hopping around to news blogs and rumor mills like a flea on a hot griddle…somewhere I saw the word “uranium” but kept following links and couldn’t back, or the site had changed since and no longer said “uranium”…just one of those internet chimera…I hope…)
Israel would survive just fine with a reduced amount of US aid. It would still have the most powerful military in the region by a long shot.
I can’t imagine anything worse for Israel than this incident. The Pollard affair was a bit different (although the Israelis made it clear that they wanted him released from prison).
I thing that now, there should be a fundamental re-assessment of our relationship with Israel, and a good start would be the immediate suspension of all loans, grants and outright gifts to that country.
If they want to settle the west bank, THEY can do it with their own money. Not only that, but they can buy their own oil from now on. ;j
You right ,after tens of years siphoning billions of dollars from US tax payers and getting for free latest military equipment any nation would have ,powerefull army for many years ahead.It is obvious.
By the way ,why Israel with some of the smartest people on the face of the earth needs financial help? I understand helping Egypt or other unstable poor countries but why Israel with 80% of Nobel Prise winners?
I don’t have cites, but I believe that Israel’s military and economy are, to one degree or another, dependant on our largess.
Thus, to decrease aid would decrease the vibrancy of their military and/or economy.
Although yes, reduced aid would have less of an impact than eliminated aid.
However, I still think it’s naive to assume that our allies don’t and won’t spy on us and that damaging strategic alliances over something that is part and parcel of modern statecraft is unnecessary.
I would also note that since the British revolution in the intelligence game as of WW II, it is far more useful to have enemy agents that you can turn and/or feed disinformation/strange loops to than to have no spies in your government at all.
Where the hell did I mention ending diplomatic relations? Holy crap, that is infuriating: STOP EXTENDING ARGUMENTS TO SOME ILLOGICAL EXTREME!
I said that we should suspend defense aid. I have no problem whatsoever with America being the ‘final guarantor’ of Israeli security; But if they want to fucking spy on us (and oh by the way, help the Chinese build a technically advanced army, thanks Israel!), they shouldn’t see dime one of direct aid. Heck, we can preposition equipment for our troops (should Israel be invaded) over there; No need to give Israel money, not if this is the thanks we get.
When has a agent from a ‘friendly’ country been caught spying on us? (Cite.) And how many of those countries recieve billions in direct military aid and incalcuable ‘political’ aid when it comes to ‘running interference’ on the world stage?
I couldn’t say either, and I guess we can’t know how they’d do by themselves. To some extent it’s moot. Israel won’t get in too much shit for this because both parties will worry that it would cost them the Jewish vote, especially in, I don’t know, Florida.
True, but somehow it seems a combination of ungrateful and just plain devious. I think there’s cause for concern here.
I’m sorry, but that just made me laugh. Thank you.
Not quite sure why you feel the need to yell either…
Perhaps I was being unclear.
Our diplomatic relationship with Israel includes and entails us giving them aid.
Our diplomatic posture with Israel is one of alliance and aid.
You suggested we suspend defense aid as a result of this.
I still think it is naive to assume that every single nation on earth isn’t spying, or trying to spy, on every other nation on earth.
And that in general punishing other nations, especially our allies, for spying on us is short sighted.
Is that supposed to be a question mark instead of a period after ‘cite’?
If you are asking for a cite as to what countries have been caught spying on us, I do not have one.
Nor do I have a cite for my contention that any government that wants to be informed has to spy on other countries.
Nor do I feel like arguing that point as it seems intuitive to me.
If necessary I will concede the point to you, as I am uninterested in debating it.
I can see how one might read it that way.
To me it seems like a combination of pragmatism and ruthlessness.
Different strokes I suppose.
I would suggest that instead of punishing Israel we should be making sure that it’s harder for us to be spied upon.
And yes, I do think that it’s a cause for concern whenever we have any spies in our midst, but I don’t think the correct course of action is to punish allied nations who spy on us.
If, however, Israel was behind us attacking Iraq I do think that’s a very bad thing.
However, I also think that we’re between a rock and a hard place.
We need them as a strategic ally in the region, and can’t afford to do anything that would harm them.
At least as far as I see it.
Mutual espionage can have a very positive effect, in that it helps preclude some really, really bad mistakes.
For instance, this legend… The Soviets developed a system for detecting subtle signals that might, in aggregate, signal a hostile American intent. Now, we know that we never really had much interest in a first-strike scenario, but they never really accepted it. Hitler’s invasion gave them a permanent case of the heebie-jeebies.
At one point, all the indicators went red, but it was all coincidence. Each of the factors that would indicate eminent surprise attack lined up, but they were each, seperately, the result of entirely innocent coincidences. But the Kremlin got spooked, and started jumping at shadows, and ramping up thier alerts…
Until they interecepted a Navy message, by way of the top secret code they stole (Aldrich Ames?). It ordered a US nuclear missile sub to return for routine maintenance. So the Soviets figured…if the Americans were about to go berserk, they wouldn’t be calling the sub back for something routine. It would stay on station until Boom Day. So they stood down, and when nothing happened, they changed trousers and got drunk. Hell, I sure would.
Now, I’m not going to make any affidavits about this, but you can take my meaning. Hell, if we had had really reliable intelligence about Iraq, we might not be in the pickle we’re in now! I don’t doubt for a minute that the Bushiviks exaggerated thier flimsy intelligence, but if they had known for sure that Saddam had diddly-squat, I don’t think they would have dared pull the shit they pulled. They figured on being proven right and getting away with it.
No, mutual spying ought to conducted in a civil fashion. We catch you, we bust you, there is an appropriate display of fuss and feathers, and life goes on.
But not, repeat, not to the extent of actually manipulating intelligence for foreign policy aims in their own interest. Thats a whole different kettle of piranha!
Its probably not so, and I hope its not so. But we have to know, and to know for sure!