Nations do all sorts of crap. Just because nations do it doesn’t mean that it is a good thing or that it should not have repercussions.
For example, invasions are “how nations behave.” Don’t mean that an invasion of your country isn’t something to get up in arms about, now does it?
Another way that nations behave is to respond to affronts.
Israel can behave as nations behave and the US can behave the way that nations behave and react to it.
And now after exposing Israeli spy ,you know what is going to happen?, Congress is going to increase aid to Israel even more.They have to be compensated for loosing asset inside the Pentagon.That is the logic I see in recent USA/Israeli relationship.
With Israel’s economy in tatters due to the Second Intifada, I honestly don’t agree with you. But again, I’ve got no credentials, so I can’t back that up.
No prob.
I don’t think it’s so much about tribute as that the safety and security of Israel is a cornerstone of our foreign policy. In other words, its not about them, but us.
Noted and accepted.
My apologies for conflating the two.
Agreed, again it seems I have conflated two similar topics. My apologies.
I assure you it was unintentional.
And, YMMV?
I think that since there is no objective backing for how much interest is too much, it’s hard to pin it down as ‘undue’ influence. That was my only point.
In any case, I must admit that I’m ill-prepared for a GD thread on this topic. My contention that Israel is an important strategic ally in the region and that for our own interests we need to support them is more a question of theoretical-foreign-policy.
I don’t really have cites or sources, so as this point I will (attempt to) bow out gracefully and conceded that this debate should be carried on by those with more facts at hand.
Sorry if I’ve frustrated anybody.
ciao ciao.
Well, again, the response has to be tempered by the repercussions for our own intelligence interests and assets. I agree, some affronts are unacceptable. Perhaps in this incident, Israeli security crossed a line; I don’t know. But our spies have assasinated, or attempted to assasinate, heads of state. I can’t many other more potent means of using intelligence forces to directly influence policy. When considering the sins of Israel, we must be mindful of our own, I’m afraid. It’s just the nature of the spying busienss to issue loud protestations, puff up chests and make other displays of stately indignation, and then quietly let the matter slide into obscurity. If we behave much differently, a lot of US CIA agents, who for better or worse we must rely upon to help protect us from the likes of al Qaeda, will be coming home in body bags. Even our friends would see to that.
Your Mileage May Vary
Not at all. You’ve been very gracious and have displayed admirable character. I have enjoyed my discourse with you. I sincerely hope that you will return to GD more often.
With all due sincerity,
SimonX
There’s some speculation that this’s an attempt to flip Mr. Franklin.
Awwww shucks. ~shuffles feet~
Thanks much, I really appreciate it.
I may occasionally be as intelligent as normal GD posters, but in most cases I simply don’t have the factual arsenal required to debate among other intellectuals who know their shit. I will do my best to remedy that, and will of course participate in GD as often as mah lil’ brain allows.
P.S.
Thanks for clearing up some of my ignorance.
Catch ya lata.
Let’s put this latest spy episode in a little perspective. According to this report from the GAO, “Country A” conducts the most aggressive espionage operations against the US of any of our allies. According to this and other articles, the Washington Times identified Israel as “country a” on 2/22/96. (Can’t find that article online)
Aside from the Pollard case, there are also well-documented allegations that Israel has sold sensitive US technology to China – including Patriot missile technology and airborne radar technology. Here’s a summary from Senator Sam Nunn’s organization.
Contrary to what FinnAgain has alleged about the US having given Israel large amounts of foreign aid throughout the 50 year relationship between our countries, that really isn’t true. Bilateral aid was pretty meager until the late Nixon years. Large amounts of aid didn’t really begin flowing until after the Israeli-Egyptian peace agreement, at which same time Egypt was also promised large amounts of aid in order to be “even handed.” Breakdown of aid by year. Roughly one-third of US foreign aid goes to Israel and Egypt.
Contrary to the claim that a cutoff of aid would have disasterous economic circumstances, in 1996, Netanyahu proposed phasing out US economic grants to Israel over a ten year period. In an exchange, military assistance would be ramped up by an amount that is 50% of the economic aid that was cut. (For example, $500 million cut from economic aid = $250 million increase in military aid.) There is a legit reason for military aid, although I think it should be restructured… but that’s for another debate.
Here’s what I’m saying: bottom line, Israel is a worthy ally because they are a democracy, and we should support democratic countries, especially those that have, historically, been under threat from their neighbors. If Egypt or Syria or others were to roll in the tanks to try to drive Israelis into the sea, the US should stand by its ally, no question.
However, that doesn’t mean we have to put up with crap from an ally. The US has exceedingly good intelligence relations with Britain, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand because we don’t spy on each other. If an ally – let’s say France – wants to put spies in the US government, they should be willing to pay the price for their subversion of our friendship. That should go for Israel, too. In fact, it should go double for Israel becase we don’t give France $3.5 billion in foreign aid a year.
Furthermore, I read some vague allusion to the US strategic interest in keeping Israel as an ally, or some such, as if the relationship provides great benefits to US national interests. I’m sorry, but an objective analysis shows that the tangible drawbacks to the relationship have, so far, outweighed the tangible benefits. Think of the anti-American fury every time Israel assasinates a terrorist, or how Bin Laden uses his rhetoric to encourage attacks against the “Big Brother” as opposed to the “little one.”
And what tangible benefits has the relationship brought? I’m straining to find one, aside from the moral benefit of standing by a fellow democracy (as mentioned above), which is indeed a worthy one, and should be continued. But I’d love to hear any list of tangible benefits that the US-Israeli relationship has brought the the US… I simply can’t think of any at the moment.
Great post as usual.
Thanks most immensely for the background and links.
This mutual cordiality and respect stuff is starting to get on my nerves. Can’t anybody say something surly?
PS: The estimable Josh Marshall, of Talking Points Memo, has threatened that a he’s going to drop a bombshell at Washington Monthly. (Today?)
Normally, I’d wait till then and rush back here to post the hot stuff before Simon, who’s such a smarty pants about this kind of thing.
But I figured, hey, preemptive strike! Works for them, why not me?
Anyway, lurk here…http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/
Aint dis a bitch too?
In addition to the Vulcan I mentioned earlier, other players are being said to have a special relationship with Israel as well.
**FBI probes DOD office**
"At least three former CIA officials told UPI that in 1998 Rhode had his clearances suspended, based on allegations he had given classified information to Israel.
…the Pentagon…downgraded [Michael] Ledeen’s security clearances… in the mid-1980s, after an earlier boss, Noel Koch, the Principal Assistant Secretary for International Security Affairs, had urged the FBI to begin a probe of Ledeen… for passing classified materials to a foreign country, believed to be Israel.
…Ledeen “was carried in Agency files as an agent of influence of a foreign government: Israel,”…
…March 1983, Feith, then a Middle East analyst on the National Security Council, was fired by Judge William Clark…because Feith “had been the object of an inquiry into whether he had provided classified material to an official of the Israeli Embassy in Washington” and that the FBI “had opened an inquiry.”
Also notable from the same article
…Ledeen was hired by Feith to work on contract for the Office of Special Plans…
Forgot a couple of details
**FBI probes DOD office**
*August 28, 2004
United Press International
*
Oddly enough I thought SimonX’s compliment
would have been the perfect setup for Triumph the Insult Comic Dog’s usual punchline, but good manners prevailed.
FBI looks at Pentagon worker in Israel spy probe
*Aug 27, 2004
CNN.com *
"Washington insiders note that it is not unusual for friendly governments to have access to certain classified information, so even if the allegations are correct, not everyone involved may have thought they were involved in espionage. Still, one U.S. source is calling the case “a very serious matter.”
Which is what?
I don’t get to watch tv.
Tell the wife you’re going to the library, then come on over. Pound a few brew, get crude, have a good laugh.
“Heeeeey, Bon Jovi! Good career move, playing a vampire in a movie! Now you got a role where you are expected to suck!”
Outrageous!! I’m writing a letter to the warden right now!
FBI espionage probe goes beyond Israeli allegations, sources say
By Warren P. Strobel
Posted on Sat, Aug. 28, 2004
Knight Ridder Newspapers
WASHINGTON - An FBI probe into the handling of highly classified material by Pentagon civilians is broader than previously reported, and goes well beyond allegations that a single mid-level analyst gave a top-secret Iran policy document to Israel, three sources familiar with the investigation said Saturday.
The probe, which has been going on for more than two years, also has focused on** other civilians in the Secretary of Defense’s office**, said the sources, who spoke on condition they not be identified, but who have first-hand knowledge of the subject."
And the wicked nasty stuff starts oozing out.
"I have in my hands fifty-seven cases of individuals who would appear to be either card carrying members or certainly loyal…"
But this time there’s actual evidence to back it up?! :eek:
I sure am glad I’m not a neocon.
Compare the Pentagon’s negative pregnant denial with the negatove pregnant denial of .Israeli sources’.
The Pentagon’s:
“The investigation involves a single individual at the Department of Defense at the desk officer level who was not in a position to have significant influence over U.S. policy.
Nor could a foreign power be in a position to influence U.S. policy through this individual.”
and
Israeli sources: Alleged spy had regular work ties with us
By Aluf Benn, Haaretz Correspondent, Nathan Guttman,
Haaretz Correspondent in Washington, Haaretz Service and Agencies
Last Update: 29/08/2004 02:15
Israeli sources said Saturday that Franklin had work relations with Israeli officials, but that these relations did not exceed the boundaries of accepted diplomatic contact. The sources said that checks conducted over the weekend negated all possibilities of espionage or unacceptable conduct and that no Israeli had received classified information from Franklin.
Note that the allegations of influence were that the info he supplied to the AIPAC members was used to formulate Israel’s lobbying tactics. So, no one’s saying that US policy was influenced through Mr. Franklin. The influence came through lobbying more senior players. And, no one’s saying that an Israeli received classified info from Franklin. Franklin passed it on to the AIPAC.
I suppose that the AIPAC members involved in the investigation could be Israelis. I haven’t noticed where anyone has bothered to discuss the nationality of the AIPAC people involved, I assume that they are Americans.
next
Analysis: The Franklin affair will damage Israel’s image
By Aluf Benn, Haaretz Correspondent
Last Update: 29/08/2004 03:22
…the investigation against Pentagon man Larry Franklin, who is suspected of passing classified material to Israel via AIPAC people…and comparisons to the Pollard affair are highly exaggerated.
…the affair will deter American officials, who will think twice before talking to Israeli colleagues for fear of getting entangled in inquiries and surveillance.
The organization’s [AIPAC] image will be tarnished and administration officials will wary of returning calls from its representatives.
*Israeli officials say that the affair will not cloud the relations with the U.S. in the long term, especially if the suspicions are groundless. *
Let me stop right here and note the odd phrasing of the comment from the ‘Iraeli officials’ . The affair will not cloud the relations with the U.S, especially if the suspicions are groundless.
This means the ‘Israeli official’ think that even if the suspicions are well founded the affair will not cloud relations with the US.
Israeli sources assume Franklin fell victim to power struggles in the Pentagon, between the professional level and the political appointments of the “neocons.” The probe against him and its leaking were intended to weaken the political group…
Hard to not to reach this conclusion.
Doesn’t mean that this is all that there is to it, or that the charges are trumped up.
Given that the investigation has gone on for 2yrs and that wire taps and computer searches were used, there’s bound to be a reasonable sized sample of whatever evidence there is available. Why continue an investigation for 2yrs if you’re not finding anything worth investigating?
Sources in the bureaus of the prime minister and defense and foreign ministers said that after the publication they conducted an extensive internal examination, which completely refuted any espionage allegations.
Why bless their little politician hearts. It’s always almost amusing when politicians say these sorts of things with straight faces. One gets the impression, for a moment, that they actually expect you to take these sorts of statements at face value.
“Israel is not aware of having received information from this man,” a Jerusalem source said. "Nobody used him, people hardly knew him,"I just went over this negative pregnant a second ago didn’t I?
finally
Focus: The ‘dual loyalty’ slur returns to haunt U.S. Jews
By Nathan Guttman, Haaretz Correspondent
Last Update: 29/08/2004 00:06
When the next person gets up and tries to claim that Israeli interests are dictating American foreign policy, American Jewish community leaders won’t be able to settle for charging groundless anti-Semitism. They will instead be called on to provide an explanation as to what representatives of the pro-Israel lobby were doing in Franklin’s office, an office that dealt, among other things, with formulating the plans for the war in Iraq.
Rather than ‘settle’ for charging anti-Semitism, the issues raised will have to be addressed. Well, hmmm. Ya think?