# Another JFK Conspiracy? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 28, 2012, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-jfk-conspiracy/629690 "2012-07-28T16:45:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-jfk-conspiracy/629690/41 "2012-07-31T03:34:14Z")
I’m 51 years old and have never heard the expression “made man” before, but here everyone’s using like it’s common. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-jfk-conspiracy/629690/42 "2012-07-31T04:06:45Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > He killed Oswald. His story was a very weak motive. He wanted to save Mrs. Kennedy from a trial and prove a Jew had guts? Bull puckey. But Wanting to kill Oswald was a very common reaction at the time. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-jfk-conspiracy/629690/43 "2012-07-31T04:08:51Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > As was mentioned upthread, read Posner’s Case Closed. It makes these conspiracy theories look silly. > > One chapter documents Ruby’s moves that weekend. It’s been a while, and I forget all of the details. Many people saw him angry and crying. He voluntarily shut down his strip clubs in honor of Kennedy. He was across town and got a call from one of his former strippers begging for money, so he drove across town to the Western Union office to wire her money, and brought his dog along. > > There’s a time stamp on the wire. Oswald should have been in transit to the county jail at that time because there was a delay in arranging transit. They changed the location at the last minute. Ruby happened to be wandering by at the time. He was well known around police headquarters, so nobody said anything when he walked right into the parking garage. > > So much of that makes a conspiracy where Ruby kills Oswald to shut him up look silly. First, why would the plan allow Oswald three days in which to sing like a canary? Have someone behind him at the book depository to plug him after he kills the President. > > Why take the chance of shooting him on national TV when a million things could have gone wrong? I’m aware of all of this. I think it is weak sauce. Ruby killed Oswald. It shut Oswald up. The rest of it to me sounds like so much defense attorney complications, all of which could be made up in advance. As for the coincidence of Ruby meeting Oswald, Ruby had no business there. Him knowing police makes him an ideal hit man. If Ruby has to kill Oswald publicly, there is a criminal practice called making an alibi for someone who is going to commit a crime. All of the things you mention could have been arranged for Ruby (and others who never had to act because Ruby had the first opportunity) to be mitigating factors. Yes, a case can be made that he wasn’t a hit man. It’s been made. Most Americans don’t believe it. I don’t believe it. These are not credible people. It looks like a hit. I can see why you buy it, but I don’t. I no more believe that Ruby didn’t assassinate Oswald than I believe that glove didn’t fit OJ Simpson. I can make my own gloves look like they don’t fit me by flattening out my hand. ---
**Author:** ![crypto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b3f665/32.png) [@crypto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crypto)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-jfk-conspiracy/629690/44 "2012-07-31T07:17:33Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > As was mentioned upthread, read Posner’s Case Closed. It makes these conspiracy theories look silly. > > One chapter documents Ruby’s moves that weekend. It’s been a while, and I forget all of the details. Many people saw him angry and crying. He voluntarily shut down his strip clubs in honor of Kennedy. He was across town and got a call from one of his former strippers begging for money, so he drove across town to the Western Union office to wire her money, and brought his dog along. > > There’s a time stamp on the wire. Oswald should have been in transit to the county jail at that time because there was a delay in arranging transit. They changed the location at the last minute. Ruby happened to be wandering by at the time. He was well known around police headquarters, so nobody said anything when he walked right into the parking garage. > > So much of that makes a conspiracy where Ruby kills Oswald to shut him up look silly. First, why would the plan allow Oswald three days in which to sing like a canary? Have someone behind him at the book depository to plug him after he kills the President. > > Why take the chance of shooting him on national TV when a million things could have gone wrong? I have not read Posner yet, but plan to do so. However, if this is the kind of thing he does to “prove” Oswald was the lone assassin, then I’m already questioning his outcome. There is no more validity for his scenarios not happening to prove Oswald was guilty than anythin I’ve read that makes Oswald a patsy. Seriously, Posner goes through all of those “what if” scenarios as if he is the prosecution for the government in the case shaker oswald. But his ideas of why someone didn’t kill Oswald right away or why they let Oswald have a chance to speak for three days doesnt prove a damn thing, and you all know it. I can’t wait to read this book now, which is always brought up in these threads like it answers every question out there. I have read that Ruby was sweating profusely after he shot Oswald, and his blood pressure was spiked the entire time after he shot Oswals until he died. After Ruby learns of his death, his blood pressure goes down and he stops sweating. These are two involuntary bodily functions that changed as a direct result of oswald’s condition. Does that prove he was hired to kill Oswald? Of course not. But one could point to this “evidence” that Rubys life Must have depended on killing oswald. The CT’ers point to this and say SEE? while the non-CTers say “big deal. That doesnt prove anything.” ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-jfk-conspiracy/629690/45 "2012-07-31T12:24:34Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > I’m 51 years old and have never heard the expression “made man” before, but here everyone’s using like it’s common. If you watch mob films or have any interest in the mafia, it’s a pretty common expression. [Definition.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Made_man) ---
**Author:** ![Bookkeeper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bookkeeper/32/281_2.png) [@Bookkeeper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bookkeeper)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-jfk-conspiracy/629690/46 "2012-07-31T12:33:10Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > I have not read Posner yet, but plan to do so. However, if this is the kind of thing he does to “prove” Oswald was the lone assassin, then I’m already questioning his outcome. There is no more validity for his scenarios not happening to prove Oswald was guilty than anythin I’ve read that makes Oswald a patsy. Seriously, Posner goes through all of those “what if” scenarios as if he is the prosecution for the government in the case shaker oswald. But his ideas of why someone didn’t kill Oswald right away or why they let Oswald have a chance to speak for three days doesnt prove a damn thing, and you all know it. > > I can’t wait to read this book now, which is always brought up in these threads like it answers every question out there. I have read that Ruby was sweating profusely after he shot Oswald, and his blood pressure was spiked the entire time after he shot Oswals until he died. After Ruby learns of his death, his blood pressure goes down and he stops sweating. These are two involuntary bodily functions that changed as a direct result of oswald’s condition. Does that prove he was hired to kill Oswald? Of course not. But one could point to this “evidence” that Rubys life Must have depended on killing oswald. The CT’ers point to this and say SEE? while the non-CTers say “big deal. That doesnt prove anything.” The police arrest Ruby and the first thing they do is to put a blood pressure cuff on him to monitor his involuntary bodily functions? Cite? ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-jfk-conspiracy/629690/47 "2012-07-31T13:15:04Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > As for the coincidence of Ruby meeting Oswald, Ruby had no business there. Him knowing police makes him an ideal hit man. If Ruby has to kill Oswald publicly, there is a criminal practice called making an alibi for someone who is going to commit a crime. All of the things you mention could have been arranged for Ruby (and others who never had to act because Ruby had the first opportunity) to be mitigating factors. What you’re saying here is “sure, all the evidence points to the idea that Ruby simply made a bad decision and killed Oswald in a moment when he had the opportunity, but all that evidence could have been arranged by the mob to give Ruby a plausible alibi!” Just face it - all the evidence points to Ruby’s making a spontaneous bad decision, and there is no evidence that it was planned or ordered, except for your gut feel that it must have been. And why would the mob want Oswald killed anyway? Wouldn’t the theory that someone ordered Ruby to take out Oswald, depend on Oswald’s killing of Kennedy being at the request of the mob? That’s probably the weaker link in your chain - I think it’s obvious to everyone that the mob would never hire someone like Oswald to do their dirty work. ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-jfk-conspiracy/629690/48 "2012-07-31T13:26:06Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > I’m aware of all of this. I think it is weak sauce. Ruby killed Oswald. It shut Oswald up. The rest of it to me sounds like so much defense attorney complications, all of which could be made up in advance. . . . Yes, a case can be made that he wasn’t a hit man. It’s been made. Most Americans don’t believe it. I don’t believe it. These are not credible people. It looks like a hit. I can see why you buy it, but I don’t. > > I no more believe that Ruby didn’t assassinate Oswald than I believe that glove didn’t fit OJ Simpson. I can make my own gloves look like they don’t fit me by flattening out my hand. [Can’t believe I’m actually participating in one of these . . .but] I don’t think that majority of Americans still support the conspiracy, so I’d like to see a site for that. But hell, 6% of Americans think the moon landing was a hoax so I’m not sure that’s a good site in your favor. If you think the evidence that has been laid out showing that it was complete chance that Ruby was there when Oswald came out (including the delay, Ruby being asked for a money order, his dog, etc.) I don’t think anyone is going to change your mind. But smarter men than I have pointed out that IF you think Ruby killed Oswald to shut him up, all you have done is trade in one loose end for another. Now you have Ruby in custody for the rest of his life, and he can sell out the conspiracy. You’ve told him to kill Oswald, he knows who you are, and why you’re telling him to do it and now Ruby can sell you out. What do you do now, kill him too? If Oswald was killed and the killer was never caught, you might (I wrote might) have a case. But not in this one. ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-jfk-conspiracy/629690/49 "2012-07-31T13:32:14Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > I have not read Posner yet, but plan to do so. However, if this is the kind of thing he does to “prove” Oswald was the lone assassin, then I’m already questioning his outcome. There is no more validity for his scenarios not happening to prove Oswald was guilty than anythin I’ve read that makes Oswald a patsy. If I could be King for a day, I think my sole dicate would be to stop using Oswald’s quote “I’m a patsy” as evidence of his innocence. Because as we all know, no guity guy has ever proclaimed his innocence. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-jfk-conspiracy/629690/50 "2012-07-31T14:08:01Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > [Can’t believe I’m actually participating in one of these . . .but] > > I don’t think that majority of Americans still support the conspiracy, so I’d like to see a site for that. But hell, 6% of Americans think the moon landing was a hoax so I’m not sure that’s a good site in your favor. Happy to oblige [http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-215\_162-23166.html](http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-215_162-23166.html) Only one in ten Americans think Oswald acted alone. Many also believe there was a government cover-up. Just remember, it’s not a majority vote. You are entitled to be in the small minority and it might be right. As for Oswald saying he was a patsy, that doesn’t even slightly convince me of his innocence. The evidence against Oswald is overwhelming. As for the Ruby blood pressure spike finally dropping when Oswald was pronounced dead, I had not heard that before. I’d like to see a cite. If true, that might suggest that Oswald would have implicated Ruby. ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-jfk-conspiracy/629690/51 "2012-07-31T14:16:39Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Happy to oblige > > [http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-215\_162-23166.html](http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-215_162-23166.html) > > Only one in ten Americans think Oswald acted alone. Many also believe there was a government cover-up. Half of the people are dumber than the average guy. In all seriousness, if one reads about this case, and sees or reads an intelligent discourse on it, such as “Case Closed” or the some recent TV shows on PBS or the like and still believes in the conspiracy, I don’t have any confidence in their judgment. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-jfk-conspiracy/629690/52 "2012-07-31T14:22:46Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > He killed Oswald. His story was a very weak motive. If he was part of a conspiracy, wouldn’t he have made up a half-decent story ahead of time? Or wouldn’t someone with a more convincing motive have been used instead of Ruby? We could play this game all day. Ruby offered multiple stories to explain his actions, so I’m skeptical of all of them. I think he was an unstable guy who wanted to be a big shot. There may not be much to it beyond that. Both Ruby and Oswald told more than one story about what happened, so we don’t need to rely on their words. As noted, Ruby would not have even had a chance to kill Oswald if Oswald hadn’t stopped to change his shirt. Ruby couldn’t have known about that. What kind of plot is that? The point of a murder for hire is that you want to be sure the job gets done and not rely on coincidence or the decisions of a guy who stops to go to the bank, has a dog in the car, and only happens to get there at the right time by luck. > [@](#): > > If there was a secret plot there would only be hints. There aren’t any hints. But you’re making a typical CT-ish move in that this appears to suggest the lack of evidence of a conspiracy is itself evidence of the work of the conspiracy. That doesn’t work logically. > [@](#): > > Ruby shut Oswald up. It is the simpler explanation. It’s not simpler because it requires a large conspiracy that involves both Ruby and Oswald when there is no evidence of either and abundant evidence that they acted alone. > [@](#): > > To me it looks like it was to take care of Oswald as a loose end. It might be more psychologically satisfying, but that doesn’t count as evidence. > [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > I have not read Posner yet, but plan to do so. However, if this is the kind of thing he does to “prove” Oswald was the lone assassin, then I’m already questioning his outcome. I shall commence pretending to be surprised. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-jfk-conspiracy/629690/53 "2012-07-31T17:28:53Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > If he was part of a conspiracy, wouldn’t he have made up a half-decent story ahead of time? Or wouldn’t someone with a more convincing motive have been used instead of Ruby? We could play this game all day. Ruby offered multiple stories to explain his actions, so I’m skeptical of all of them. I think he was an unstable guy who wanted to be a big shot. A lot of people do believe Ruby’s story. I don’t find it credible. And it is correct that the Platonic form of the history here isn’t a majority vote. It did get Ruby out of the death penalty. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-jfk-conspiracy/629690/54 "2012-07-31T17:40:59Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > A lot of people do believe Ruby’s story. I don’t find it credible. Which story? We’re talking about the evidence here, not Ruby’s story. I don’t believe much of what Ruby said. I’m especially dubious of his claim that the conspiracy gave him cancer while he was in prison. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-jfk-conspiracy/629690/55 "2012-07-31T18:03:59Z")
Come on, as the documentary _Watchmen_ clearly showed, shadowy conspiracies are totally not above giving people cancer if it fits in with their nefarious plots. Wake up, Sheeple23! ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-jfk-conspiracy/629690/56 "2012-07-31T19:30:46Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > You’ve told him to kill Oswald, he knows who you are, and why you’re telling him to do it and now Ruby can sell you out. What do you do now, kill him too? You inject him with cancer! > [@Marley23](#): > > As noted, Ruby would not have even had a chance to kill Oswald if Oswald hadn’t stopped to change his shirt. Ruby couldn’t have known about that. **The Second Stone** was saying that Oswald changing his shirt was part of the plan, to make the whole “hothead” idea more credible. So Oswald was participating in helping his killers get away with killing him. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-jfk-conspiracy/629690/57 "2012-07-31T21:27:14Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > . . . the documentary _Watchmen_ . . . I love you and wish you were my pirate captain! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-jfk-conspiracy/629690/58 "2012-07-31T21:48:46Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > You inject him with cancer! > > **The Second Stone** was saying that Oswald changing his shirt was part of the plan, to make the whole “hothead” idea more credible. So Oswald was participating in helping his killers get away with killing him. I said nothing of the sort. I don’t believe the changing of the shirt mattered. I believe that Ruby premeditated the murder of Oswald and shot when he got his opportunity. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-jfk-conspiracy/629690/59 "2012-07-31T21:50:21Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > I don’t believe the changing of the shirt mattered. I believe that Ruby premeditated the murder of Oswald and shot when he got his opportunity. The timeline says he lucked into his opportunity, which undercuts your argument about premeditation. Oswald should have already been out of the station by the time Ruby got there and there’s no evidence Ruby would have had any way to know about the delay. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-jfk-conspiracy/629690/60 "2012-08-01T02:15:49Z")
You’ve offered a timeline to show intent that Ruby could not possibly have premeditated intent to kill Oswald. To read his inner thoughts. Ruby’s actions refute your timeline with a gunshot that killed Oswald. Spitting or a slap on the face would not refute your argument so loudly. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-jfk-conspiracy/629690.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-jfk-conspiracy/629690.md?page=4)