# Another "kid gets a hold of parents loaded gun" thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 25, 2010, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-kid-gets-a-hold-of-parents-loaded-gun-thread/540727 "2010-05-25T18:32:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-kid-gets-a-hold-of-parents-loaded-gun-thread/540727/321 "2010-06-10T15:23:42Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Especially since, as has been repeatedly said, you’d somehow have to disappear the very knowledge of guns–a zip gun is NOT hard to make with even rudimentary skills, turning out cartridge cases is only slightly harder, and mixing gunpowder from common basic ingredients is not any higher on the “difficult chemistry” scale than meth. Zip-gun’s are dangerous and unsafe, for the most part. Sure, you can make one yourself, so why are we in Western Europe not bothered about doing just that? After all, it is much harder to get a firearm here? (…besides the air rifles or paintball guns) Less violent? Less gun related crimes? If I would have to worry about, that the robber has a gun, than I would most defiantly look into getting a gun of my own. I personally think, firearms are good fun at a shooting range, but that is where they should stay. Even with the best training people have accidents at home. The key for the locker get’s left unattended, the kid finds out the combination for the locker etc… ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-kid-gets-a-hold-of-parents-loaded-gun-thread/540727/322 "2010-06-10T15:34:18Z")
> [@Doughbag](#): > > I personally think, firearms are good fun at a shooting range, but that is where they should stay. Even with the best training people have accidents at home. The key for the locker get’s left unattended, the kid finds out the combination for the locker etc… Lots of us shoot at home or on property that we own. That’s what I do. And a firearm locked up at a shooting range is going to do you very little good for self defense. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-kid-gets-a-hold-of-parents-loaded-gun-thread/540727/323 "2010-06-10T16:08:28Z")
> [@Doughbag](#): > > Zip-gun’s are dangerous and unsafe, for the most part. > Sure, you can make one yourself, so why are we in Western Europe not bothered about doing just that? After all, it is much harder to get a firearm here? (…besides the air rifles or paintball guns) > Less violent? Less gun related crimes? We’ve already discussed this upthread–it’s VERY clear that the US has a firearm homicide rate that’s entirely out of proportion to its household firearms ownership rate. That is, other countries with similar or somewhat lower firearms ownership rates have DRASTICALLY lower firearm violence rates. Similarly, within the US, firearms homicide rates vary widely from a geographic standpoint without correlation to the firearms ownership rate. From the data we have, it really looks like the problem is cultural and not based on ownership rates. Further, it seems like the bulk of the problem (and why the problem doesn’t exist as much in Europe) is the perception of hopelessness and lack of safety net among the US’s poor. Personally, I think the US would do better to address the root causes of violence in general rather than waste time and energy attempting to ban guns when the data shows pretty clearly that prohibitions of any kind are entirely ineffective given the US’s border situation. While I’d be happier with some tighter forms of gun regulation, too, I can’t get behind the idea that banning firearms is the answer to anything. Ultimately, I believe that the statistics indicate that even if firearms were illegal in the US, we’d still have a much higher murder and violent crime rate than Eurpoe. > [@](#): > > If I would have to worry about, that the robber has a gun, than I would most defiantly look into getting a gun of my own. This would be a worry for me in certain areas of the US with or without legal firearms ownership–it’s been repeatedly proven in areas from immigration to drug control that the US border is highly porous to supposedly illegal and interdicted items. We do, after all, have a much larger border area than most European countries and proportionally more of it is wilderness, which makes smuggling somewhat easier over here. > [@](#): > > I personally think, firearms are good fun at a shooting range, but that is where they should stay. Even with the best training people have accidents at home. The key for the locker get’s left unattended, the kid finds out the combination for the locker etc… The thing is, in the entire US for 2002 (I foolishly didn’t bookmark the 2007 data I cited elsewhere), there were only around 750 deaths from firearm accidents. That’s so miniscule as to be not worth especially considering from a policy standpoint–compare to 3000ish medical/surgical related deaths, 13000 each for poison and falls, or nearly 44000 motor vehicle accident fatalities. ---
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-kid-gets-a-hold-of-parents-loaded-gun-thread/540727/324 "2010-06-10T16:37:06Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > Lots of us shoot at home or on property that we own. That’s what I do. > > And a firearm locked up at a shooting range is going to do you very little good for self defense. I don’t think, my neighbour would appreciate me firing a gun in the backyard. … and no, I also don’t need it for selfdefence either, but this was not even anywhere mentioned in my post you quoted me on. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-kid-gets-a-hold-of-parents-loaded-gun-thread/540727/325 "2010-06-10T16:42:37Z")
> [@Doughbag](#): > > I don’t think, my neighbour would appreciate me firing a gun in the backyard. … and no, I also don’t need it for selfdefence either, but this was not even anywhere mentioned in my post you quoted me on. Well, you suggested that they stay locked up at the shooting range. I have my own shooting range. Shot on our own property as a kid too. ---
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-kid-gets-a-hold-of-parents-loaded-gun-thread/540727/326 "2010-06-10T16:50:31Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > Well, you suggested that they stay locked up at the shooting range. I have my own shooting range. Shot on our own property as a kid too. Fine, whatever… go nitpick and have fun… guns are safe…no harm there at all, thats why they don’t take them to war or anything… ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-kid-gets-a-hold-of-parents-loaded-gun-thread/540727/327 "2010-06-10T16:59:16Z")
> [@Doughbag](#): > > Fine, whatever… go nitpick and have fun… guns are safe…no harm there at all, thats why they don’t take them to war or anything… Stop misrepresenting what I am saying. I did not say guns are safe. The fact is that there are people that shot on their own property. So your idea of keeping them all locked up at a shooting range is not practical for everyone ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-kid-gets-a-hold-of-parents-loaded-gun-thread/540727/328 "2010-06-10T17:00:53Z")
Is the Czech republic in western Europe? If so, gun ownership doesn’t seem to be a problem despite their relatively loose restrictions on firearms ownership. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-kid-gets-a-hold-of-parents-loaded-gun-thread/540727/329 "2010-06-10T17:13:50Z")
> [@Doughbag](#): > > I don’t think, my neighbour would appreciate me firing a gun in the backyard. … and no, I also don’t need it for selfdefence either, but this was not even anywhere mentioned in my post you quoted me on. > [@Doughbag](#): > > Fine, whatever… go nitpick and have fun… guns are safe…no harm there at all, thats why they don’t take them to war or anything… So in other words, you didn’t read my post at all. Also: I shoot at my parents’ place quite a bit. They have 16 acres and a target backstop. What’s not rational about shooting there? What’s nitpicky about “I OWN a shooting range” in response to “guns should only be kept at shooting ranges and not private homes”? ---
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-kid-gets-a-hold-of-parents-loaded-gun-thread/540727/330 "2010-06-10T17:20:36Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > So in other words, you didn’t read my post at all. Did you actually read my post? > [@Zeriel](#): > > Also: I shoot at my parents’ place quite a bit. They have 16 acres and a target backstop. What’s not rational about shooting there? What’s nitpicky about “I OWN a shooting range” in response to “guns should only be kept at shooting ranges and not private homes”? Cool, so almost every gun owner has a shooting range in their backyard? Right, not nitpicking at all. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-kid-gets-a-hold-of-parents-loaded-gun-thread/540727/331 "2010-06-10T17:32:44Z")
> [@Doughbag](#): > > Did you actually read my post? > > Cool, so almost every gun owner has a shooting range in their backyard? Right, not nitpicking at all. Mine is 40 vacant acres about a half hour from where I live. There are also quite a few public shooting ranges that are not monitored or have any structures or buildings on them. I know of two in my county, that’s the only type we have. That, and National Forest. It’s only a nitpick if you don’t know what you are talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-kid-gets-a-hold-of-parents-loaded-gun-thread/540727/332 "2010-06-10T17:46:16Z")
> [@Doughbag](#): > > Did you actually read my post? > > Cool, so almost every gun owner has a shooting range in their backyard? Right, not nitpicking at all. In rural areas, that is practically true if not literally true–you ARE from here, right? You do realize that in much of this country, owning an acre or more is pretty common? What’s your thoughts on the fact that the rate of (and danger from) accidental firearms death is orders of magnitude lower than that of falling down the stairs, even in a country with relatively high firearms ownership rates like the US? ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-kid-gets-a-hold-of-parents-loaded-gun-thread/540727/333 "2010-06-10T17:57:36Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > In rural areas, that is practically true if not literally true–you ARE from here, right? You do realize that in much of this country, owning an acre or more is pretty common? > > What’s your thoughts on the fact that the rate of (and danger from) accidental firearms death is orders of magnitude lower than that of falling down the stairs, even in a country with relatively high firearms ownership rates like the US? According to his profile he’s a German living in Ireland. Also, even if you say owning a firearm for self defense isn’t sufficient reason, so it’s not an excuse, what about the fact that I compete in competitions at multiple ranges? I don’t compete in them all, but there are pins at one range, GSSF at another (actually, it moves around), IDPA moves around, then there’s another competition entirely that is outdoor using metal falling targets just for fun. And that’s only locally, as a pretty good but not great (IMO) shooter. If you’re state or federal competition level, you can travel around the country on a regular basis like it’s nothing. Should they buy new guns at every range? ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-kid-gets-a-hold-of-parents-loaded-gun-thread/540727/334 "2010-06-10T18:53:30Z")
> [@Todderbob](#): > > Is the Czech republic in western Europe? If so, gun ownership doesn’t seem to be a problem despite their relatively loose restrictions on firearms ownership. Nope, Eastern Europe. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-kid-gets-a-hold-of-parents-loaded-gun-thread/540727/335 "2010-06-10T22:59:10Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Nope, Eastern Europe. Ah, that’s right. I always get the west and west confused, for no apparent reason. Probably because I think of it all as way easy of me. Switzerland is eastern europe, though – cmon, one for two? And they’ve got guns-a-plenty. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-kid-gets-a-hold-of-parents-loaded-gun-thread/540727/336 "2010-06-10T23:50:20Z")
Central Europe. There seems to be a dichotomy in most people’s mind that Eastern Europe = former communist and Western Europe = capitalist around the same time. Wikipedia has a link that has the UN put them in CE. This also includes Slovakia, Slovenia, Poland, and Hungary as well as noncommunist countries. These nations tend to share more with Western Europe in everything but Slavic identity (well for 4/5 of them anyway). ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-kid-gets-a-hold-of-parents-loaded-gun-thread/540727/337 "2010-06-11T00:57:36Z")
> [@Todderbob](#): > > Ah, that’s right. I always get the west and west confused, for no apparent reason. Probably because I think of it all as way easy of me. > > Switzerland is eastern europe, though – cmon, one for two? And they’ve got guns-a-plenty. Man, I’m revoking your geography permit. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-kid-gets-a-hold-of-parents-loaded-gun-thread/540727/338 "2010-06-11T04:18:13Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Man, I’m revoking your geography permit. 😃 Hey, at least I got Europe… Right!!! Right guys?! They’re both at least in Europe?! ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-kid-gets-a-hold-of-parents-loaded-gun-thread/540727/339 "2010-06-11T10:59:01Z")
> [@Doughbag](#): > > I personally think, firearms are good fun at a shooting range, but that is where they should stay. Even with the best training people have accidents at home. The key for the locker get’s left unattended, the kid finds out the combination for the locker etc… This is what I wrote. Now, if YOUR shooting range is your backyard, then put it into a secure locker on your premisis. When you transport it, put it in a locker in your car. Whatever you do, firearms are not safe - you can only make it safer. Whatever smart or smug reply you can give me to that, wont change the fact. And yes, there are other unsafe things we are using every day, but most of the time these things provide a much higher usability than firearms - like electicity, cars, water… the list is endless. Here is a short version of the German gun storage and transportation rules: > [@](#): > > A firearms ownership license (Waffenbesitzkarte) must be obtained before a weapon can be purchased. Owners of multiple firearms need separate ownership licenses for every single firearm they own. It entitles owners to purchase firearms and handle them on their own property and any private property with property owner consent. On public premises, a licensed firearm must be transported unloaded and in a stable, fully enclosing, locked container. A weapons ownership license does not entitle the owner to shoot the weapon or carry it on public premises without the prescribed container. Firearms ownership licenses are valid three years or less, and owners must obtain mandatory insurance and a means to securely store the weapon on their premises (a weapons locker). Blanket ownership licenses are sometimes issued to arms dealers. > > A number of criteria must be met before a firearms ownership license is issued: > > age of consent (18 years for rimfire calibers/21 years for higher calibers) (§ 4 WaffG) > trustworthiness (§ 5 WaffG) > personal adequacy (§ 6 WaffG) > expert knowledge (§ 7 WaffG) and > necessity (§ 8 WaffG) (Necessity is automatically assumed present for licensed hunters and owners of a carry permits (Waffenschein)). > Persons who are > > convicted felons > have a record of mental disorder or > are deemed unreliable (which includes people with drug or alcohol addiction histories and known violent or aggressive persons) > are barred from obtaining a firearms ownership license. > > Firearms carry permits entitle licensees to publicly carry legally owned weapons, loaded in a concealed or non-concealed manner. A mandatory legal and safety class and shooting proficiency tests are required to obtain such a permit. Carry permits are usually only issued to persons with a particular need for carrying a firearm. This includes licensed hunters, law-enforcement officers, security personnel and persons living under a raised threat-level like celebrities and politicians. > > The weapons law does not apply to military use of weapons within the Bundeswehr. > > The identity card of German troops contains a term allowing them carrying weapons. Nevertheless, issuance of guns and especially ammunition is also very strictly controlled within the armed forces. In comparison to this, the US gun regulation is nothing else but a joke. [Here is a wiki link for Switzerland](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland) ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-kid-gets-a-hold-of-parents-loaded-gun-thread/540727/340 "2010-06-11T11:03:10Z")
Guns that can only be fired by the legitimate owner, that also record each time it is fired and provides a GPS of the location, are the way forward. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-kid-gets-a-hold-of-parents-loaded-gun-thread/540727.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-kid-gets-a-hold-of-parents-loaded-gun-thread/540727.md?page=18)