# Another law school thread, advice for a rising undergrad frosh, all lawyers welcome **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 25, 2002, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-law-school-thread-advice-for-a-rising-undergrad-frosh-all-lawyers-welcome/120711 "2002-07-25T05:26:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Big\_Kahuna\_Burger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Big\_Kahuna\_Burger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Big_Kahuna_Burger)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2002, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-law-school-thread-advice-for-a-rising-undergrad-frosh-all-lawyers-welcome/120711/1 "2002-07-25T05:26:56Z")
I know that there are other threads in which college grads are asking advice for law school, but I haven’t even started my undergraduate studies yet. Background: I’m going to attend the Honors program of a Second-Tier college with a strong School of Public Affairs (American University). In high school I had a 3.8 GPA (factoring out the honors points that’d probably be about 3.5). However, when factoring out the math and science classes I won’t be taking in college, it’d be closer to an actual 3.8. I hope to get about this in college. I want to get into law for two big reasons and one minor one: 1. I want to get into politics, and I’m not sure what exactly I’ll do in it, but a law degree always helps. 2. I have an analytical mind that would be good for law. I can also write pretty well, coming from two years of being a newspaper editor. 3. I got a $90,000 scholarship, and my parents said they’d put that much to any postrgraduate work. This means I could have a major leg up over other law grads. What [I think] I know so far: Undergrad grades and LSATs are most important. Along with the classes in my major (political science) I should also take some writing and philosophy classes. What I want to know: What would it take to get into a top 10 law school in terms of classes, grades and LSATs? What about just a first tier school in general? Keep in mind it’ll be tougher for me than the most of ya because my college class is a lot bigger, so there’ll be a lot more applicants (also one of the reasons why I want to do it right after I graduate, because the pool will be smaller then). Also, law schools are very selective and get a lot of similar applications. How do I set myself apart? Any other advice is greatly appreciated. Thanks, -BKB ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2002, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-law-school-thread-advice-for-a-rising-undergrad-frosh-all-lawyers-welcome/120711/2 "2002-07-25T13:05:15Z")
Way back when, I gave the following advice in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=31036) to someone who wanted to clerk for the Supreme Court: > [@](#): > > Gad, if you want to be a Supreme Court clerk, you’ll have to go one of the three most prestigious law schools in the country. You’ll probably be better off at Yale than at Harvard, because I understand that the environment is not quite as cut-throat, meaning you’ll actually learn something other than how to screw your classmates. > > In order to get admitted to Yale in the first place, you’ll need to just about ace your LSAT. The median LSAT score of a Yale law student is about 171, which would put you in the top 2% of all students who take the exam (and people planning to go to law school tend to be plenty smart). Keep in mind also that you’re competing with around 3,000 applicants for 180 spots in the first-year class; your undergraduate transcripts had better be almost spotless, around a 3.85 GPA, preferably higher. > > In order to get the clerkship you want, you’ll need to be at or near the top of your Yale class, composed of students who did just as well on the LSAT and in college as you did. That means busting your ass for three solid years in the hardest area of graduate study. Even then, you’ll be competing with the top students from other law schools around the country for the Supreme Court clerkships; each Justice needs around 3 student clerks per year, IIRC. > > All I’m saying is, you’re shooting for the top. While that would be nice, don’t be too discouraged if it doesn’t happen. From what I know now, I wouldn’t want to clerk for the Supreme Court anyway; it just doesn’t sound like a job that would hold my interest for long, and I want more out of life than prestige. There are lots of really cool things to do with a law degree, some of which may not have even occurred to you. And it’s just as true today as the day I wrote it. On to some new, more-specific advice: definitely take philosophy classes. They’ll help you learn to think, which is a valuable asset to have in law school. Also, you’ll get a good look at the Socratic Method, which many law students don’t have much experience with until they start law school. You set yourself apart with your application essay. There are lots of books around that tell you how to write a winning essay; buy them, read them, follow their advice. My essay focused on the time I changed majors; it showed how I recognized my limitations and worked around them. I’m sure that after you read the books, you’ll come up with something similar. If politics is your ultimate goal, you might want to start to learn the “art of shmoozing” right away. I wish I could recommend good books, but I don’t know of any, and I’m a terrible shmoozer myself. But, one of the most important skills you can develop in law school and politics is the art of remembering people, making them think you care deeply about them, knowing what they can do for you, and taking advantage of it. So, you might want to try student government or residence hall rep work or something similar. ---
**Author:** ![TheFifthYear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@TheFifthYear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheFifthYear)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2002, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-law-school-thread-advice-for-a-rising-undergrad-frosh-all-lawyers-welcome/120711/3 "2002-07-25T18:32:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Big Kahuna Burger \* > \*\* > What I want to know: What would it take to get into a top 10 law school in terms of classes, grades and LSATs? \*\* Pick up the grad school edition of US News. They print the 25-75 percentile GPA’s and LSAT’s for every school. That’ll tell you what you need to know. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Keep in mind it’ll be tougher for me than the most of ya because my college class is a lot bigger, so there’ll be a lot more applicants (also one of the reasons why I want to do it right after I graduate, because the pool will be smaller then). \*\* I don’t understand what you’re saying here. If you’re suggesting that you’ll have a tougher time because of your class size at American, I think you’re wrong. If you are saying that there is a bubble at your age group and therefore there will be a higher number of graduates that year from all colleges, you may be right, but I think the economy will have a bigger effect. Law school apps have been way up the last couple of years due to the soft economy. If the economy is hot again in four years when you graduate, I think you’ll have a relatively easier time. \*\* > [@](#): > > Also, law schools are very selective and get a lot of similar applications. How do I set myself apart? > \*\* It’s (almost) all in the numbers. Have a high GPA and a high LSAT. Look through the GPAs and LSATs on the US News rankings. A couple of tenths of a GPA point and three points on the LSAT could send you from a top 10 to a low first tier/ high second tier. For extra stuff, try to do something that shows leadership or community service. But the best thing you can do right now is do as well as you can in college. By the way, a friend in my law school class went to American. He speaks well of it; you should have a great time and lots of opportunities. Good luck. ---
**Author:** ![Big\_Kahuna\_Burger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Big\_Kahuna\_Burger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Big_Kahuna_Burger)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2002, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-law-school-thread-advice-for-a-rising-undergrad-frosh-all-lawyers-welcome/120711/4 "2002-07-26T04:05:34Z")
**TheFifthYear** : Yeah, I was talking about how there will be a lot of law school applicants my year. I did check the averages for the LSATs and GPAs for top law schools, the difference between a 3.6/165 LSAT and 3.8/170 is a bit unnerving. Luckily, I’m a good test-taker. I’m also trying to get into the School of Public Affairs Leadership Program, which does include community service. **Max Torque** : Considering I’m only 17, I’ve already made some pretty good connections in politics, so I won’t need any books on it. Does fraternity president look as good as a position in student government? Thanks for all the great advice so far. ---
**Author:** ![TheFifthYear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@TheFifthYear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheFifthYear)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2002, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-law-school-thread-advice-for-a-rising-undergrad-frosh-all-lawyers-welcome/120711/5 "2002-07-26T05:27:02Z")
Let me throw in a couple of other things I didn’t address in my earlier post. In your first post, you imply that you aren’t planning on taking much math in college. I _highly_ recommend reconsidering that. IMHO, the math courses I took in undergrad were the biggest help on the logic game section of the LSAT. Advanced math requires a style of analysis that translates very well on the LSAT. Also, I have found that a background in economics is very helpful in law school. I think most schools require some math courses if you intend to go very far in the economics curriculum. I’d recommend taking a healthy dose of econ classes. You’ll be shocked how often economic analysis is used in making legal judgments. As a side note, I’m researching some international competition law stuff for a professor this summer, and the first thing I had to do was spend about a week reviewing basic economics and game theory. I could have gotten a much smoother start if I had had more econ courses in undergrad. ---
**Author:** ![PublicBlast](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/779978/32.png) [@PublicBlast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PublicBlast)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2002, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-law-school-thread-advice-for-a-rising-undergrad-frosh-all-lawyers-welcome/120711/6 "2002-07-26T13:16:31Z")
1. Ace the LSAT. I had a 3.28 GPA (Ivy League) and a 174 on the LSAT. Got into a bunch of great top-tier schools. Shoulda quit while I was ahead and not gone to law school. 🙂 (Recently dropped out of law after 1 year…e-mail me if you want the sob story.) Seriously though–IIRC there are more LSAT-heavy schools than GPA-heavy ones, check out USNews’ website. However, if you have both a great GPA and a great LSAT, you’ll get offered money, which is always nice. 2. For mercy’s sake, take a philosophy course in **FIRST-ORDER LOGIC** if you can find one! It’s basically a blueprint to the LSAT logic games. (I got a perfect score on the logic section because of the logic class I took.) Logic is also great for teaching you reasoning and analysis in general. Math is also helpful, though in a slightly less-direct way. 3. This goes for law school, LSAT, college, and life in general: make sure you do lots of reading and writing at a high level. Take advanced literature or history or philosophy courses. You have mountains of dense stuff to read in law school, and you will be happy if you start getting good at heavy analysis now. 4. Avoid the University of Chicago law school like a plague. Just like I should have… :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Big\_Kahuna\_Burger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Big\_Kahuna\_Burger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Big_Kahuna_Burger)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2002, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-law-school-thread-advice-for-a-rising-undergrad-frosh-all-lawyers-welcome/120711/7 "2002-07-26T18:07:46Z")
I’ve already taken college-level statistics in high school, what other math courses are helpful for the LSAT? I took a tour of U Chicago before deciding NOT to apply there, I didn’t want to spend 4 years like that, so I wouldn’t plan on spending 3 there either. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2002, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-law-school-thread-advice-for-a-rising-undergrad-frosh-all-lawyers-welcome/120711/8 "2002-07-27T00:42:00Z")
If I were back where you are now, and had the ambition you seem to have, here’s what I’d do – Look at what it takes to be a Rhodes Scholar. No, I’m not kidding. Find out the criteria and try to meet them. Spend four years doing the volunteer work, academic stuff, and athletics of some variety (no matter how minor; athletics are not that important), get some really good references lined up, and go for it. You can spend a year doing post-grad work in Oxford, and you’ll be a near shoo-in for any law school in the nation. Sure it’s a long shot, but somebody’s got to win those spots, right? People do it every year, so why not you? Other than that – Get good grades, line up something non-academic that makes you look socially responsible (candy-striping or whatever) and stick the LSAT. But seriously: If you’re just starting college and you want a serious challenge, research Rhodes scholarships. Why not go for the brass ring? ---
**Author:** ![Big\_Kahuna\_Burger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Big\_Kahuna\_Burger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Big_Kahuna_Burger)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2002, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-law-school-thread-advice-for-a-rising-undergrad-frosh-all-lawyers-welcome/120711/9 "2002-07-27T06:53:41Z")
**Jodi** I was actually looking at a Marshall Scholarship, which doesn’t have the athletic requirement (After a skiing accident I quit organized sports and just do stuff for fun). Thanks for the suggestion, I hadn’t taken it too seriously until now.