# Another Lethal injection question
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lethal-injection-question/921254
**Category:** In My Humble Opinion
**Created:** [September 22, 2020, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lethal-injection-question/921254 "2020-09-22T18:35:58Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 4
### Author:  [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)
#### Post date: [September 24, 2020, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lethal-injection-question/921254/61 "2020-09-24T23:59:28Z")
I would also like a cite on that.
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### Author:  [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)
#### Post date: [September 25, 2020, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lethal-injection-question/921254/62 "2020-09-25T10:17:34Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#):
>
> Would you volunteer to execute a person who had done something similar to someone you didn’t know?
Did they film it, and boast about it? Is it 100% certain they did it? Then yes.
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### Author:  [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)
#### Post date: [September 25, 2020, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lethal-injection-question/921254/63 "2020-09-25T12:36:34Z")
That’s disturbing.
I’m sorry to personalize this, and I tried to avoid that – when I said “[w]ould you volunteer to execute a person who had done something similar to someone you didn’t know?”, I truly expected the answer to be “no.”
Yes, I think someone who would mete out the proverbial nine grams of lead as punishment to someone who committed a crime to which the shooter has no personal connection has severe and concerning psychological issues.
And the 100% certainty qualifier is bullshit. Even if the crime is captured on video, along with all the events leading up to it, can anyone know the state of the perpetrator’s mind? His or her circumstances? Psychological issues? The answer is, of course, no.
And how do you draw distinctions between exactly which crimes merit the bullet in the back of the head, and which crimes for which you would pull the trigger? Torture and rape with film? Horrendous, and you’d do it in those circumstances.
Would you execute Derek Chauvin? Gary Ridgeway?
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### Author:  [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)
#### Post date: [September 25, 2020, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lethal-injection-question/921254/64 "2020-09-25T12:59:59Z")
> [@Mallard](#):
>
> how do you figure that? [is highly racist]
There are a ton of sources for this, and it should really be common knowledge:
“While white victims account for approximately one-half of all murder victims, 80% of all Capital cases involve white victims. Furthermore, as of October 2002, 12 people have been executed where the defendant was white and the murder victim black, compared with 178 black defendants executed for murders with white victims.”
“In April 2001, researchers from the University of North Carolina released a study of all homicide cases in North Carolina between 1993 and 1997. The study found that the odds of getting a death sentence increased three and a half times if the victim was white rather than black.”
[https://www.aclu.org/other/race-and-death-penalty](https://www.aclu.org/other/race-and-death-penalty)
“Black lives do not matter nearly as much as white ones when it comes to the death penalty, a new study has found. Building on data at the heart of a landmark 1987 Supreme Court decision, the study concluded that defendants convicted of killing white victims were executed at a rate 17 times greater than those convicted of killing Black victims.”
"But the court came within one vote of addressing racial bias in the administration of the death penalty in the 1987 decision, McCleskey v. Kemp. By a 5-to-4 vote, the court ruled that even solid statistical evidence of race discrimination in the capital justice system did not offend the Constitution.
One of the dissenters in the case, Justice John Paul Stevens, was still stewing over it after his own retirement in 2010. “That the murder of Black victims is treated as less culpable than the murder of white victims provides a haunting reminder of once-prevalent Southern lynchings,” he wrote that year in The New York Review of Books."
[https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/03/us/racial-gap-death-penalty.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/03/us/racial-gap-death-penalty.html)
“Approximately 35% of those executed since 1976 have been black, even though blacks constitute only 12% of the population. The odds of receiving a death sentence are nearly four times higher if the defendant is black than if he or she is white.”
“In 1990, the U.S. General Accounting Office reviewed numerous studies of patterns of racial discrimination in death penalty sentencing. Their review found that for homicides committed under otherwise similar circumstances, and where defendants had similar criminal histories, a defendant was several times more likely to receive the death penalty if his victim were white than if his victim were African American.”
> **[aclu\_dp\_factsheet4.pdf](https://www.prisonpolicy.org/scans/aclu_dp_factsheet4.pdf)**
>
> 180.91 KB
“The death penalty has long come under scrutiny for being racially biased. Earlier in the twentieth century when it was applied for the crime of rape, 89 percent of the executions involved black defendants, most for the rape of a white woman. In the modern era, when executions have been carried out exclusively for murder, 75 percent of the cases involve the murder of white victims, even though blacks and whites are about equally likely to be victims of murder.”
> **[Race](https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/policy-issues/race)**
>
> The Death Penalty Information Center is a non-profit organization serving the media and the public with analysis and information about capital punishment.…
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### Author:  [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)
#### Post date: [September 25, 2020, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lethal-injection-question/921254/65 "2020-09-25T13:09:17Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#):
>
> A story on NPR pointed out that many people executed by lethal injection may suffer, violating the “cruel and unusual punishment” forbidden by the US Constitution.
> There is seemingly a problem with the combinations of chemicals used.
> Why don’t executioners use whatever drug is used to knock patients out for surgery on prisoners, and simply cut their wrists?
Drugs used on patients for surgery are administered by medical professionals, and modern medical professional bodies have declared that participating in executions is incompatible with modern medical ethics, as the ‘patient’ has not consented to the ‘care’. So it is difficult or impossible to get someone qualified to get the right mixture of drugs and administer them properly (veins can be hard to locate, dosages can vary), and if you have someone unqualified administering them and no doctor monitoring, then you can’t be sure that the effects on the prisoner are correct to avoid problems with it being ‘cruel and unusual punishment’. Also, the manufacturers of lethal injection drugs have found that they tend to get boycotts and embargoes in some countries for supporting the death penalty, so manufacturing a few doses in the correct formulation for lethal injection has an extreme cost and almost no market.
Implementing a new method of execution has the problem that there is no court precedent that such a method is constitutional, so ordering the execution of a prisoner by some new method is likely to be stopped by the courts until the constitutionality of the new method can be determined by the courts, which is something that would take years of appeals. Some methods that people have discussed here would not pass ‘cruel and unusual punishment’ standards, others would not be acceptable to people in favor of the death penalty - giving a prisoner a big does of heroin so that they go out with a big high would absolutely not fly with the people who want to administer the ultimate punishment.
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### Author:  [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)
#### Post date: [September 25, 2020, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lethal-injection-question/921254/66 "2020-09-25T15:12:42Z")
> [@Pantastic](#):
>
> There are a ton of sources for this, and it should really be common knowledge:
Thank you for stepping up.
I had simply assumed @Mallard was JAQing & unworthy of response.
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### Author:  [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)
#### Post date: [September 26, 2020, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lethal-injection-question/921254/67 "2020-09-26T02:39:53Z")
Yeah, he might be JAQing off, but there are other people reading the thread. It’s easy to dismiss ‘the death penalty is racially biased’ if you think it’s just biased at the level of noise, like a 5% difference. Posting the extreme statistics (things like 4x as likely, or 85% of all cases) will probably reach some people who thought it was just technically slightly biased.
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### Author:  [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)
#### Post date: [September 26, 2020, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lethal-injection-question/921254/68 "2020-09-26T12:19:50Z")
Is this due to prosecutors seeking the death penalty, or jurors convicting more people of color than whites?
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### Author:  [@BippityBoppityBoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BippityBoppityBoo)
#### Post date: [September 26, 2020, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lethal-injection-question/921254/69 "2020-09-26T19:15:27Z")
Yes.
(+ one more character to make Discourse nanny happy. Sheesh.)
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### Author:  [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)
#### Post date: [September 26, 2020, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lethal-injection-question/921254/70 "2020-09-26T21:13:30Z")
The fault lies with Prosecutors deciding to seek the death penalty more often for Black people, and jurors voting guilty more often for Black defendants than White? Could you elaborate?
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### Author:  [@Mallard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mallard)
#### Post date: [September 26, 2020, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lethal-injection-question/921254/71 "2020-09-26T21:34:25Z")
I find a bit hard to believe that prosecutors think “he’s black, let’s get the death penalty” or similar thinking amongst juries & judges.
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### Author:  [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)
#### Post date: [September 26, 2020, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lethal-injection-question/921254/72 "2020-09-26T22:27:07Z")
> [@Mallard](#):
>
> I find a bit hard to believe…
And I find it not hard to believe at all.
What’s your point?
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### Author:  [@Mallard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mallard)
#### Post date: [September 26, 2020, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lethal-injection-question/921254/73 "2020-09-26T22:50:25Z")
My point is quite clear so I guess we will simply disagree.
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### Author:  [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)
#### Post date: [September 26, 2020, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lethal-injection-question/921254/74 "2020-09-26T23:02:34Z")
The bias is more likely implicit than a conscious decision to execute someone because he’s black. Black men are perceived as less innocent, more dangerous, more deserving of punishment. It sounds like you just don’t want to believe the facts.
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### Author:  [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)
#### Post date: [September 27, 2020, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lethal-injection-question/921254/75 "2020-09-27T01:30:56Z")
How do we rectify the situation? Forbid prosecutors from seeking the death penalty for people of color? Limiting juries for Black people to Black people?
If you declare the problem, surely you can offer a solution.
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### Author:  [@BippityBoppityBoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BippityBoppityBoo)
#### Post date: [September 27, 2020, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lethal-injection-question/921254/76 "2020-09-27T02:07:41Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#):
>
> If you declare the problem, surely you can offer a solution.
Abolish the death penalty.
Quick and much cheaper solution.
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### Author:  [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)
#### Post date: [September 27, 2020, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lethal-injection-question/921254/77 "2020-09-27T06:56:33Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#):
>
> Back to heroin. Surely there is a lot of it confiscated from drug dealers. Once the guy passes out, give him enough to kill an elephant.
Heroin can be made pharmaceutical-grade. No reason to use miscellaneous street drugs with who knows what it it.
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### Author:  [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)
#### Post date: [September 27, 2020, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lethal-injection-question/921254/78 "2020-09-27T07:30:20Z")
Regarding the nitrogen/inert gas method of [execution](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inert_gas_asphyxiation#:~:text=In%20April%202015%2C%20Governor%20Mary,used%20to%20carry%20out%20executions.):
> In April 2015, Governor Mary Fallin of Oklahoma signed a bill allowing nitrogen asphyxiation as an alternative execution method.[[5]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inert_gas_asphyxiation#cite_note-newsok.com-5) Three years later, in March 2018, Oklahoma announced that, due to the difficulty in procuring lethal injection drugs, nitrogen gas will be used to carry out executions.[[43]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inert_gas_asphyxiation#cite_note-43) In March 2018, Alabama became the third state (along with Oklahoma and Mississippi), to authorize the use of nitrogen asphyxiation as a method of execution
I read this and thought _“Wow! I didn’t know anyone was even considering that!”_ And then I read further that:
> After **struggling for years to design a nitrogen execution protocol** , Oklahoma announced in February 2020 it abandoned the project after finding a new reliable source of lethal injection drugs.
[Bolding mine]
How much trouble could it be to design an execution protocol for inert gas asphyxiation? I understand there would be complex legal, medical, ethical and other considerations in _any_ execution protocol but how can nitrogen asphyxiation be any more of a struggle than any other protocol?
Especially since it’s simpler, more humane, probably cheaper, and doesn’t need a physician to administer it. I really don’t get this.
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### Author:  [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)
#### Post date: [September 27, 2020, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lethal-injection-question/921254/79 "2020-09-27T11:56:19Z")
Stevens also said that he did not envision “victim impact statements” being part of the equation. He was against these-- as I am. The “worth” of the victim should not enter into the equation. There should be no invitations to kill homeless people with no family to speak for them, because you will get a lesser punishment if caught. People should not get the death penalty only when jurors can put themselves in the place of the victim’s family members, or when family and friends are simply particularly well-spoken.
FTR, I’m against the death penalty in general, though.
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### Author:  [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)
#### Post date: [September 27, 2020, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lethal-injection-question/921254/80 "2020-09-27T16:50:22Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#):
>
> If you declare the problem, surely you can offer a solution.
Proportionality review during appeals.
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