# Another Lethal injection question
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lethal-injection-question/921254
**Category:** In My Humble Opinion
**Created:** [September 22, 2020, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lethal-injection-question/921254 "2020-09-22T18:35:58Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 5
### Author:  [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)
#### Post date: [September 27, 2020, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lethal-injection-question/921254/81 "2020-09-27T18:46:57Z")
> [@BippityBoppityBoo](#):
>
> Abolish the death penalty.
>
> Quick and much cheaper solution.
I’m all for abolishing the death penalty. But I have grave doubts that would actually solve the underlying problem (of people who murder white people receiving disproportionately harsher sentences than people who murder black people). Abolishing the death penalty just means that people who are convicted of murdering a white person on average are sentenced to, let’s say, at least 70 years of imprisonment, or life without parole (and serve on average at least 25 years), while people convicted of murdering a black person on average are sentenced to only 20 years of imprisonment (and serve seven years).
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### Author:  [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)
#### Post date: [September 27, 2020, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lethal-injection-question/921254/82 "2020-09-27T19:25:07Z")
I am Carnivorousplant, and I agree with this post.
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### Author:  [@BippityBoppityBoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BippityBoppityBoo)
#### Post date: [September 27, 2020, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lethal-injection-question/921254/83 "2020-09-27T20:57:53Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#):
>
> But I have grave doubts that would actually solve the underlying problem (of people who murder white people receiving disproportionately harsher sentences than people who murder black people).
I completely agree. I was merely suggesting a solution to the humane execution query.
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### Author:  [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)
#### Post date: [September 27, 2020, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lethal-injection-question/921254/84 "2020-09-27T23:27:46Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#):
>
> Stevens also said that he did not envision “victim impact statements” being part of the equation. He was against these-- as I am. The “worth” of the victim should not enter into the equation. There should be no invitations to kill homeless people with no family to speak for them, because you will get a lesser punishment if caught. People should not get the death penalty only when jurors can put themselves in the place of the victim’s family members, or when family and friends are simply particularly well-spoken.
>
> FTR, I’m against the death penalty in general, though.
I support everything you said here!
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### Author:  [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)
#### Post date: [September 27, 2020, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lethal-injection-question/921254/85 "2020-09-27T23:33:17Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#):
>
> Regarding the nitrogen/inert gas method of [execution](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inert_gas_asphyxiation#:~:text=In%20April%202015%2C%20Governor%20Mary,used%20to%20carry%20out%20executions.):
>
> > In April 2015, Governor Mary Fallin of Oklahoma signed a bill allowing nitrogen asphyxiation as an alternative execution method.[[5]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inert_gas_asphyxiation#cite_note-newsok.com-5) Three years later, in March 2018, Oklahoma announced that, due to the difficulty in procuring lethal injection drugs, nitrogen gas will be used to carry out executions.[[43]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inert_gas_asphyxiation#cite_note-43) In March 2018, Alabama became the third state (along with Oklahoma and Mississippi), to authorize the use of nitrogen asphyxiation as a method of execution
>
> I read this and thought _“Wow! I didn’t know anyone was even considering that!”_ And then I read further that:
>
> > After **struggling for years to design a nitrogen execution protocol** , Oklahoma announced in February 2020 it abandoned the project after finding a new reliable source of lethal injection drugs.
>
> [Bolding mine]
>
> How much trouble could it be to design an execution protocol for inert gas asphyxiation? I understand there would be complex legal, medical, ethical and other considerations in _any_ execution protocol but how can nitrogen asphyxiation be any more of a struggle than any other protocol?
>
> Especially since it’s simpler, more humane, probably cheaper, and doesn’t need a physician to administer it. I really don’t get this.
As I said above, we have the technology to kill mammals quickly, reliably, and humanely. Vets routinely “put pets to sleep”. Livestock and horses are often killed with a bolt blasted into the hindbrain. Slitting the throat (as with kosher slaughter) kills very quickly. Fur animals are killed with nitrogen asphyxiation so as not to damage the pelt. (And as I mentioned above, i know two humans who passed out from asphyxiation but recovered, and both reported it was painless, even pleasant.) Heck, there are even protocols for physician assisted suicide that work reliably, and the relatives report that the deceased did not appear to suffer. But even if you assume that you can’t get access to drugs and physicians to prescribe them, there are plenty of options.
The issues with messy, painful, inhumane, and unreliable execution of criminals are 100% political.
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### Author:  [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)
#### Post date: [September 28, 2020, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lethal-injection-question/921254/86 "2020-09-28T01:04:51Z")
It does seem odd, not only using nitrogen, but being able to euthanize dogs in a matter of seconds with drugs.
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### Author:  [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)
#### Post date: [September 28, 2020, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lethal-injection-question/921254/87 "2020-09-28T10:49:05Z")
> [@TRC4941](#):
>
> What do they use in the states that allow physician assisted deaths when someone opts to end their life because of a terminal illness?
>
> Wouldn’t that work?
You’re asking if the methods devised by medical professionals to reliably end some people’s lives could be used to reliably end other people’s lives?
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### Author:  [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)
#### Post date: [September 28, 2020, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lethal-injection-question/921254/88 "2020-09-28T11:32:39Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#):
>
> being able to euthanize dogs in a matter of seconds with drugs.
Most dogs weren’t habitual drug users who have destroyed their veins. And most veterinarians aren’t untrained in the art of finding a vein, since vets are allowed to put animals to sleep, whereas medical professionals are not really allowed to kill someone who hasn’t consented to it.
On the nitrogen front, I really never thought about what goes into a death penalty “protocol”, other than it’s pretty formal and strictly followed, right? Even lethal injections have to use some machine that specifically designed to deliver some three-drug protocol in some certain way:
[.jpg) ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lethal_injection#/media/File:National_Museum_of_Crime_and_Punishment_-_Delaware_lethal_injection_machine_(2868729627).jpg)
It’s not just hooking up an IV and injecting the drugs.
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### Author:  [@Mallard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mallard)
#### Post date: [September 28, 2020, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lethal-injection-question/921254/89 "2020-09-28T15:20:18Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#):
>
> > [@TRC4941](#):
> >
> > What do they use in the states that allow physician assisted deaths when someone opts to end their life because of a terminal illness?
> >
> > Wouldn’t that work?
>
> You’re asking if the methods devised by medical professionals to reliably end some people’s lives could be used to reliably end other people’s lives?
That appears to be his question.
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### Author:  [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)
#### Post date: [September 28, 2020, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lethal-injection-question/921254/90 "2020-09-28T16:57:48Z")
Assisted suicide is morally different than killing someone who does not want to die. We are back to the medical oath, “First, do no harm”.
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### Author:  [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)
#### Post date: [September 28, 2020, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lethal-injection-question/921254/91 "2020-09-28T17:36:52Z")
> [@Mallard](#):
>
> That appears to be his question.
A bit like asking if a hammer that works on nails can also be used on other (identical) nails. As for what is used in these cases, it varies. Dignitas (Swiss organization) reportedly uses nembutal. A medically-assisted death at which I was present used Seconal.
> [@carnivorousplant](#):
>
> Assisted suicide is morally different than killing someone who does not want to die. We are back to the medical oath, “First, do no harm”.
The OP’s query was about what could be used to avoid the physical suffering that is suspected in some of lethal-injection death penalty cases. The morality of capital punishment (without consideration of the method employed) is a separate issue.
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### Author:  [@Mallard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mallard)
#### Post date: [September 28, 2020, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lethal-injection-question/921254/92 "2020-09-28T17:44:59Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#):
>
> > [@Mallard](#):
> >
> > That appears to be his question.
>
> A bit like asking if a hammer that works on nails can also be used on other (identical) nails. As for what is used in these cases, it varies. Dignitas (Swiss organization) reportedly uses nembutal. A medically-assisted death at which I was present used Seconal.
Admittedly I did detect a bit of sarcasm in his post but the comment does make sense though.
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### Author:  [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)
#### Post date: [September 28, 2020, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lethal-injection-question/921254/93 "2020-09-28T18:26:38Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#):
>
> The OP’s query was about what could be used to avoid the physical suffering that is suspected in some of lethal-injection death penalty cases. The morality of capital punishment (without consideration of the method employed) is a separate issue.
It is not at all a separate issue. When the patient consents to treatment, one can have a doctor or other trained medical professional administer the treatment. When treatment is in the patient’s best interest but the patient is considered incompetent to consent, one can still have a doctor or other trained medical professional administer treatment. When the treatment is being administered against the wishes and interests of the patient and is in fact explicitly meant to harm the patient, then one cannot have trained medical professionals involved, as that would be a major violation of their professional ethics and would result in them no longer being licensed.
This the core issue with administering a ‘humane’ lethal injection - without a medical professional to ensure that the drugs are administered correctly (finding veins can be difficult, for example), to determine the correct dosage for things like the size and condition of the person, to examine the person to ensure that the drugs have taken proper effect, it is not actually possible to be sure that the person was properly rendered insensate before the fatal drugs take effect.
Simply saying ‘use the same drugs that doctors and vets practicing euthanasia do’ ignores the fact that those are administered by a trained medical professional who monitors the procedure to ensure that suffering is minimized, and that said medical professionals cannot participate in a lethal injection procedure. It’s not at all analogous to a hammer because a hammer doesn’t require specialized expertise to use; it’s more like asking if you can have a prison guard construct a safe air frame with some aluminium and machining gear when it normally requires specialists with a lot of knowledge to make one airworthy.
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### Author:  [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)
#### Post date: [September 28, 2020, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lethal-injection-question/921254/94 "2020-09-28T18:31:05Z")
> [@TRC4941](#):
>
> What do they use in the states that allow physician assisted deaths when someone opts to end their life because of a terminal illness?
>
> Wouldn’t that work?
Once again, administering a lethal injection **correctly** requires certain advanced medical skills. Yes, a doctor qualified and experienced to administer painless voluntary euthanasia **could** carry out the same procedure on a condemned prisoner. But to do so would violate their code of ethics, and they would lose their licence.
Anybody without the proper qualifications and experience could try to follow the same procedure, but is likely to botch it, and make the execution painful.
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### Author:  [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)
#### Post date: [September 28, 2020, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lethal-injection-question/921254/95 "2020-09-28T18:53:07Z")
Do vets have ethical constraints?
Could judicial employees be trained in medicine to perform lethal injection without ethical restraint?
I must digress again and agree with those above: ending the death penalty would take care of the problem.
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### Author:  [@BippityBoppityBoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BippityBoppityBoo)
#### Post date: [September 28, 2020, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lethal-injection-question/921254/96 "2020-09-28T19:14:12Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#):
>
> Do vets have ethical constraints?
> Could judicial employees be trained in medicine to perform lethal injection without ethical restraint?
Of course vets have rigorous ethical restraints. Look that up for yourself.
Would you be willing to do 4 years (nursing), or 6-8 years (pharmacy) or 11 years (medicine) of incredibly rigorous training so you could be hired to do a few hours of work a year performing executions? Once you performed an execution you then wouldn’t be welcome practicing prolonging or improving quality of life. Leaving you to secure your livelihood as a circuit riding traveling executioner.
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### Author:  [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)
#### Post date: [September 28, 2020, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lethal-injection-question/921254/97 "2020-09-28T19:33:08Z")
> [@BippityBoppityBoo](#):
>
> Would you be willing to do 4 years (nursing), or 6-8 years (pharmacy) or 11 years (medicine) of incredibly rigorous training so you could be hired to do a few hours of work a year performing executions?
You need that much to know how to give injections and deal with any complications? I speak of prisons having an executioner trained with enough medicine to perform the task, not someone who seeks a medical career.
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### Author:  [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)
#### Post date: [September 28, 2020, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lethal-injection-question/921254/98 "2020-09-28T19:43:06Z")
The people who work in slaughterhouses kill sheep and pigs and cattle, and they don’t have 4+ years of training to do it. There are slaughterhouses that take an interest in humane slaughter. They probably do more training than the other ones, but I’m sure it’s less than 4 years.
The people who kill fur animals don’t have medical degrees and medical oaths, either. Some of the methods used to kill fur animals [methods used to kill fur animals](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fur_farming#Grading_and_slaughter_(November_-_December)) would be hard with human executions (breaking the neck) but others (nitrogen or CO asphyxiation) would be feasible.
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### Author:  [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)
#### Post date: [September 28, 2020, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lethal-injection-question/921254/99 "2020-09-28T19:45:55Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#):
>
> You need that much to know how to give injections and deal with any complications? I speak of prisons having an executioner trained with enough medicine to perform the task, not someone who seeks a medical career.
Anesthesiology is a specialized area of medicine requiring extensive training. You can’t just study it on its own. You need to be a qualified doctor before you can even begin your training. Properly qualified anesthetists are among the highest paid in the medical profession.
I would imagine that administering euthanasia requires the same degree of skill. Remember to do it properly, you first have to put the patient into a gentle sleep, then administer the drugs to end life.
Killing someone is easy. Killing them painlessly is hard.
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### Author:  [@BippityBoppityBoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BippityBoppityBoo)
#### Post date: [September 28, 2020, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lethal-injection-question/921254/100 "2020-09-28T20:27:43Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#):
>
> Killing someone is easy. Killing them painlessly is hard.
And killing people painlessly with countless people watching, figuratively as well as literally, is even harder.
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