# Another libertarian debate thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 9, 2014, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-libertarian-debate-thread/685685 "2014-04-09T02:18:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-libertarian-debate-thread/685685/41 "2014-04-09T16:27:07Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Libertarianism doesn’t promise that you won’t be miserable. Is that better? It doesn’t promise that other people will sell you things, employ you, or preside over your wedding. It promises you nothing other than personal freedom. > > Libertarianism doesn’t concern itself with _de facto_ anything. You can discriminate like a mother fucker, as long as you do so as a private citizen and not the government. Because your desire to shop in my store does not trump my desire that you don’t. You are free to set up your own store and keep me out, if you so choose. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > As I said above, Libertarianism doesn’t profess to make you happy or to solve the world’s problems or end bigotry or make you rich or even give you a job. It just professes to make you free. If you expect it do anything else, you don’t understand what it is. As your own statements demonstrate, libertarianism is the enemy of freedom. It just asserts that coercion and oppression by anything or anyone but the state magically doesn’t qualify as oppression, while forbidding the state from doing anything to stop such oppression. Simply declaring oppression as not being oppression because it’s not the _government_ doing it doesn’t make it any less oppressive. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-libertarian-debate-thread/685685/42 "2014-04-09T16:27:08Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > So Jim Crow laws were all about liberty? Yippeeee! Laws forbidding people from engaging in voluntary transactions (with no externalities or similar issues) are not all about liberty, and are antithetical to libertarianism. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-libertarian-debate-thread/685685/43 "2014-04-09T16:27:27Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Yep. But I think for many (most?) actual Libertarians, they think that all they need is freedom in order to be happy. So to them, it’s not such a problem. Of course, how that actually would work out IRL is a question that hasn’t been answered. > > My own sense is that if you set up a strictly Libertarian society, it just wouldn’t last very long. Because people want to be free, for sure, but that’s not their #1, #2 and #3 priority at all times. There is a certain amount of security they want, and then some Libertarian style freedoms have to go out the window. The concept of the 4 freedoms comes to mind here, and I agree wholeheartedly. I mean, sure, freedom is neat and all, but boy if a social safety net ain’t even neater. I don’t want to get too deep into this; political theory is not my bag, but libertarianism bugs me on a whole bunch of levels. It just seems to be an incredibly naive ideology - “make everyone free and everything will turn out fine”. It ignores how much of one’s life is dictated by things completely out of one’s control. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-libertarian-debate-thread/685685/44 "2014-04-09T16:29:19Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Simply declaring oppression as not being oppression because it’s not the _government_ doing it doesn’t make it any less oppressive. Libertarians and you have different definitions of oppression. For example, if someone refuses to do business with me, I don’t define that as “oppression”. You probably would. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-libertarian-debate-thread/685685/45 "2014-04-09T16:31:39Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Libertarians and you have different definitions of oppression. For example, if someone refuses to do business with me, I don’t define that as “oppression”. You probably would. Because it is oppression, and has historically been widely used as a form of oppression. and declaring it not to be oppression doesn’t make it so. You might as well declare it not to be oppression to beat black people to death, as long as it’s not the government doing the beating. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-libertarian-debate-thread/685685/46 "2014-04-09T16:35:14Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Libertarians and you have different definitions of oppression. For example, if someone refuses to do business with me, I don’t define that as “oppression”. You probably would. If someone doesn’t want to do business with you, that’s not oppression. If there’s a systemic pattern in a society of lots of people refusing to do business with an entire class of people, there very well may be oppression. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-libertarian-debate-thread/685685/47 "2014-04-09T16:37:53Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Libertarians and you have different definitions of oppression. For example, if someone refuses to do business with me, I don’t define that as “oppression”. You probably would. And if everyone in town refuses to do business with you? Say, because you’re left-handed? You don’t need government to oppress or suppress people. I think what **BobLibDem** was talking about WRT Jim Crow was the _[de facto](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Crow_laws)_ discrimination and oppression practiced in the northern states - you didn’t have laws demanding it, but no negro was getting a house in this neighborhood. The interesting thing about this is that in this case, people were free to freely associate… and they did so in a way that caused oppression and discrimination. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-libertarian-debate-thread/685685/48 "2014-04-09T16:45:41Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > I think what **BobLibDem** was talking about WRT Jim Crow was the _[de facto](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Crow_laws)_ discrimination and oppression practiced in the northern states - you didn’t have laws demanding it, but no negro was getting a house in this neighborhood. Maybe, but he specifically wrote Jim Crow laws. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-libertarian-debate-thread/685685/49 "2014-04-09T16:46:33Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Because it is oppression, and has historically been widely used as a form of oppression. and declaring it not to be oppression doesn’t make it so. Declaring it to be oppression doesn’t make it so. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-libertarian-debate-thread/685685/50 "2014-04-09T16:47:47Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > If someone doesn’t want to do business with you, that’s not oppression. > > If there’s a systemic pattern in a society of lots of people refusing to do business with an entire class of people, there very well may be oppression. Then I leave the society. If there are THAT many people in the society that hate me so much they don’t want to have anything to do with me, I don’t want to live in that society. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-libertarian-debate-thread/685685/51 "2014-04-09T16:48:48Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > And if everyone in town refuses to do business with you? Say, because you’re left-handed? Then I leave town. Why would I want to live in a town where everyone hates me? ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-libertarian-debate-thread/685685/52 "2014-04-09T16:52:15Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Then I leave the society. If there are THAT many people in the society that hate me so much they don’t want to have anything to do with me, I don’t want to live in that society. Great, then on your way out of town you can admit that libertarians have no interest in ending oppression or protecting individual liberties other than property rights. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-libertarian-debate-thread/685685/53 "2014-04-09T16:54:42Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Great, then on your way out of town you can admit that libertarians have no interest in ending oppression or protecting individual liberties other than property rights. Wrong. Someone not wanting to do business with me is not “oppression”. I don’t have the “individual liberty” to force someone not to hate me enough to do business with me. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-libertarian-debate-thread/685685/54 "2014-04-09T16:57:24Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Maybe, but he specifically wrote Jim Crow laws. Correct. But of course states without Jim Crow laws had their shortcomings, too. Thank goodness we have Fair Housing laws that prohibit discrimination in selling and renting real estate. Libertopia would offer no such protection. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-libertarian-debate-thread/685685/55 "2014-04-09T17:00:40Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Wrong. Someone not wanting to do business with me is not “oppression”. I don’t have the “individual liberty” to force someone not to hate me enough to do business with me. So in post #50, what did you really mean to say? Why did you talk about leaving town? Did you just want to say, “No, even in that case it’s not oppression.”? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-libertarian-debate-thread/685685/56 "2014-04-09T17:12:37Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > So in post #50, what did you really mean to say? Why did you talk about leaving town? Did you just want to say, “No, even in that case it’s not oppression.”? Of course it is not oppression. That town would be impossible for me to live in, because everyone in it hated me. What does that have to do with “oppression”? If I lived in a society where 90% hated me and I would have to look for the 10% that didn’t to do business with, that would make it an uncomfortable society for me to live in and I would probably leave. But it would still not be “oppression”. Libertarian ideology does not guarantee comfort. It guarantees freedom. As **John Mace** said. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-libertarian-debate-thread/685685/57 "2014-04-09T17:14:48Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > If someone doesn’t want to do business with you, that’s not oppression. > > If there’s a systemic pattern in a society of lots of people refusing to do business with an entire class of people, there very well may be oppression. Except that if you want to discuss whether Libertarianism is self-consistent or not, you need to you their definition, not yours. And since there is no single, objective definition of what “oppression” is, you can’t declare yourself right and them wrong _outside of a given belief system._ ---
**Author:** ![Subterraneanus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Subterraneanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Subterraneanus)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-libertarian-debate-thread/685685/58 "2014-04-09T17:23:37Z")
The cornerstone of libertarianism is an adolescent detachment from reality. It’s World of Warcraft for politicos. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-libertarian-debate-thread/685685/59 "2014-04-09T17:34:26Z")
> [@Subterraneanus](#): > > The cornerstone of libertarianism is an adolescent detachment from reality. It’s World of Warcraft for politicos. Pretty much. Then if you find yourself in a paradox where you can’t explain a libertarian principle, you can just hide behind the skirt of “well, not _all_ libertarians believe _that_!” ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-libertarian-debate-thread/685685/60 "2014-04-09T17:36:39Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Well, that’s something you just made up. > > No one claims there are no problems. As I said above, Libertarianism doesn’t profess to make you happy or to solve the world’s problems or end bigotry or make you rich or even give you a job. It just professes to make you free. If you expect it do anything else, you don’t understand what it is. If libertarianism is supposed to make me free, it does a pretty poor job. I gave an example in the OP. A hundred employees want to form a union. The boss says he’ll fire them all if they do. They can’t fire the boss but the boss can fire them. Seems to me like the boss if the only person who has any actual freedom in this situation. My system is that we have laws that tell the boss he can’t fire people for forming a union. True, the boss now has less freedom. But the employees all have more freedom. It seems to me, like my system has a hundred times more freedom than the libertarian system. A libertarian might argue that the employees are free. They can form a union as long as they’re willing to accept the consequence of losing their jobs for doing it. But, hey, the boss in my system is free too. He can fire all the employees for forming a union as long as he’s willing to accept the consequences of going to jail for doing it. Explain why a system where one boss is free is better than a system where one hundred employees are free. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-libertarian-debate-thread/685685.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-libertarian-debate-thread/685685.md?page=4)